Another Cable ? with video

[ QUOTE ]
I should have said "in most cases, I've found 2/3's to be adequate." You're rite, it will most defimitely depend on the trees structure. This is where experience comes into play.
Is science perfect?
I go with what's worked "best" for me in 40+ years as an arborist while complying with the A300 standards. It also states "practicable", leaving some discretion to the arborist.
In support systems, you need to consider the weight your supporting. Going to a higher install point to install smaller hardware in NOT the best solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too... my point is that there is no true "science" on the matter. Recommendations are made on what has worked and is practical and that is all we have to go on.. It is very difficult to apply the scientific method to much of what we do.

I never go with smaller hardware.. I have never bought anything less than 5/8" J lags, the standard 1/2" thru bolts, and 1/4" EHS cable. So I go higher with the same hardware....

The elephant in the living room here is that if you are 2/3 of the height from union to tips, you are in wood less than 10" diameter in all but the biggest of trees (at least in my market).. The real reason the industry started going with thu bolts instead of J-lags is becasue cables were being installed improperly, and J lags were often the point of failure.
 
Guy,

Thats a cool system (pic)! And it seems like it would be simple. Thats cobra right? So easy to adjust and splice to the center ring. 2 climbers would certainly be ideal to get proper distance to center.

me like!

Got any pictures of a cable and reduction prune job?
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's always difficult to decipher the scenario a poster has in their mind when describing something but there IS a negative to going TOO high obviously as if the leader is so heavy it can belly out and fail. Also it can oscilate and stress the co dom. There is usually a perfect spot and yes, it may not be 2/3rds up, but yes, you also can go TOO high imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has anyone ever seen that happen? As long as you are in wood near 5" diameter, it seems like that would not be an issue. Even on big trees, that wouldn't be aproblem at 4/5 the height and even higher depending on structure.

It would be nice to set a dyno up in a cabling system and measure the force on cables at different heights (when the wind is blowing) .. Then at least we'd have some data, which is not science but a step in the right direction.
 
[ QUOTE ]
And Norm, there aren't enough disclaimers in the universe for me to go up that tree, install a cable with no pruning done, and come back down again with a clear conscience (and a reasonable avoidance of future liability concerns). Your business and market are different, but I'm just sayin'...


[/ QUOTE ]

What if there are no obstacles of value in the danger zone?
I look at a tre like that and see no real need to prune or cable, other than for the arborist to make $$$ of course... SO I'd cable that without pruning or prune without cabling. I often see situations where cable/no prune is the most cost effective solution for the client.
 
Yes, I have seen it happen. Also it does not take to much imagination to consider an increase in movement with 2 large co doms and one cable when you are in your 4/5 distance above the crotch with the barn door effect. It will most likely be a longer cable as well.

Re. Daniel's post
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And Norm, there aren't enough disclaimers in the universe for me to go up that tree, install a cable with no pruning done, and come back down again with a clear conscience (and a reasonable avoidance of future liability concerns). Your business and market are different, but I'm just sayin'...


[/ QUOTE ]

What if there are no obstacles of value in the danger zone?
I look at a tre like that and see no real need to prune or cable, other than for the arborist to make $$$ of course... SO I'd cable that without pruning or prune without cabling. I often see situations where cable/no prune is the most cost effective solution for the client.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes the client has cabling stuck in their minds and you are behooved to put a system in because if you don't and a freak failure you get an "I told you so" and lost business maybe.
 
Dave, Dan, we are told, and the vid shows, the tree, in particular the split lead far right, is over the house.

macro, that crown looks narrow enuf for one to get it done.

i can always expect sweet nothings from my friend dave:
" ps (edit) I don't see the need for ANY pruning with budget constraints especially 2" reduction cuts that will grow back the next season."

Reduction triggers release of inner buds and growth of inner canopy. The old anti-topping myth that reduction pruning is totally undone by growth dies hard. But die it will.

"Ash have a very porous canapy that permits wind penitration with such small leaves. Also noteworthy is the buffering effect offered by surrounding trees (trees and their associates)."

Both true, but most noteworthy is that heavy end sprawling over the roof, attached with bad codom. A system that does not secure that sucka will probably make the tree less safe. Ignore that pruning need at your clients' home's, and your business's peril.

"Whatcha gonna sit up there for hours with a poleclip?

2 hrs max (nice open crown; made for wraptor), bomb small brush, get check, say "See you in 2 years" I love my poleclips; don't dis em if you know what's good for you man!
afightee.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Dave, Dan, we are told, and the vid shows, the tree, in particular the split lead far right, is over the house.

macro, that crown looks narrow enuf for one to get it done.

i can always expect sweet nothings from my friend dave:
" ps (edit) I don't see the need for ANY pruning with budget constraints especially 2" reduction cuts that will grow back the next season."

Reduction triggers release of inner buds and growth of inner canopy. The old anti-topping myth that reduction pruning is totally undone by growth dies hard. But die it will.

"Ash have a very porous canapy that permits wind penitration with such small leaves. Also noteworthy is the buffering effect offered by surrounding trees (trees and their associates)."

Both true, but most noteworthy is that heavy end sprawling over the roof, attached with bad codom. A system that does not secure that sucka will probably make the tree less safe. Ignore that pruning need at your clients' home's, and your business's peril.

"Whatcha gonna sit up there for hours with a poleclip?

2 hrs max (nice open crown; made for wraptor), bomb small brush, get check, say "See you in 2 years" I love my poleclips; don't dis em if you know what's good for you man!
afightee.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

ouchy :-)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I have seen it happen. Also it does not take to much imagination to consider an increase in movement with 2 large co doms and one cable when you are in your 4/5 distance above the crotch with the barn door effect. It will most likely be a longer cable as well.

Re. Daniel's post

[/ QUOTE ]

What specifically did you see happen due to cable being placed too high?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Dave, Dan, we are told, and the vid shows, the tree, in particular the split lead far right, is over the house.



[/ QUOTE ]
GIve anything less than hurricane winds, the chances of that tree failing at the main crotch in the next ten years is something less than 1% IMO... That tree is a co-dom with only the slightest amount of inclusion.

When you've been in this biz long enough, you run into situations where you thought a tree was OK, and recommned preservation, only to see the tree fail sometime in the future. For me, that has tended to cause a more conservative approach, and I will err on the side of caution in evaluating questionable trees. Its also important not to allow those experiences to cause us to over-react.. I do not understand why you seem to be so scared of that tree..
 
Leader fractured in the belly of the outward bend (like a bow and arrow) in a storm. Fractures were parallel to the limb. Hackberry. Moron put the cable in way too high.

Also doesn't take a brain surgeon (or even a sub par tree surgeon that thinks you can't put in a cable too high) to figure out that with a cable in very small wood on a leaning large leader.....the wood could fail below the anchor.

Tell you what....take a 4' tomato stake and duct tape a 25 lb. weight plate to the middle of it. Jam one end in the corner of a room. Tie a string on the other end of the stick and pick up the stick. See where it will break.

Again....also think of all the movement you are allowing by going in the tip of the supported branches which stress the co dom which is just what you are attempting to discourage and....would restrict using the approximate 2/3 suggested distance.

re...reply to Murphy's question
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dave, Dan, we are told, and the vid shows, the tree, in particular the split lead far right, is over the house.



[/ QUOTE ]
GIve anything less than hurricane winds, the chances of that tree failing at the main crotch in the next ten years is something less than 1% IMO... That tree is a co-dom with only the slightest amount of inclusion.

When you've been in this biz long enough, you run into situations where you thought a tree was OK, and recommned preservation, only to see the tree fail sometime in the future. For me, that has tended to cause a more conservative approach, and I will err on the side of caution in evaluating questionable trees. Its also important not to allow those experiences to cause us to over-react.. I do not understand why you seem to be so scared of that tree..

[/ QUOTE ]

I also noted without saying anything that there was no split mentioned or pictured but...

if the ho requests a cable in such a situation, they usually are going to get one (or whatever it takes) to cya.

ash is very straight grained and more likely to split in crotches than any other tree in my area....bar none (regardless of included bark or not). That is why they are so popular in the firewood pile.
 
Typical ash discovery after a mild storm (this one a few blocks from my home) without included bark (attachment).
 

Attachments

  • 282934-halb_329.webp
    282934-halb_329.webp
    110 KB · Views: 48
"GIve anything less than hurricane winds, the chances of that tree failing at the main crotch in the next ten years is something less than 1% IMO... That tree is a co-dom with only the slightest amount of inclusion."

In the main fork, yes. The sprawling lead to the right--severe codom.

"When you've been in this biz long enough, you run into situations where you thought a tree was OK, and recommned preservation, only to see the tree fail sometime in the future. For me, that has tended to cause a more conservative approach, and I will err on the side of caution in evaluating questionable trees."

When you make the mistake of recommending ANYTHING without being paid for time needed to do it right, that's when problems start. Why is it that tree guys think they are required and empowered to make all these judgments and recommendations, when they don't have the resources to do that competently? Silence is sometimes golden.

"I do not understand why you seem to be so scared of that tree" not me Kimo Sabe... pruning should take care of it imo; not high risk at all.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Typical ash discovery after a mild storm (this one a few blocks from my home) without included bark (attachment).

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome picture.. we should all keep pics like that with us when we go and talk to clients and explain that a cable would have reduced the chanced of this happen ing to 0%..

That said.. I'd like to see a close up of the branch union area... If you say there was no inclusion, I believe you, with only a little skepticism..
 
[ QUOTE ]

In the main fork, yes. The sprawling lead to the right--severe codom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I miss something, cause I ever saw any close up of the branch union where the three leads come off the right co-dom.
 
"I'd like to see a close up of the branch union area... If you say there was no inclusion, I believe you, with only a little skepticism"

murph even that small php pic shows a foot or more where the bark of one stem is pushing against the other. not a severe defect in itself--maybe just another pruning opportunity, for those who can work the ends.

clipping/sawing ~2-3" downright/horizontal branches gains a lot of stability--see the tree statics work, etc. that will get you out of the antique anti-"tipping" paradigm and into biomechanics.

amazing how 3 old farts will gas endlessly based on little but conjecture.
crazy.gif
 
Guy,
I was talking about treeve's pic of that ash on the roof, where he said there was no inclusion..

Also, you are preaching to the chior about small reduction cuts. I love them and use them to subordinate anything I want to discourage from getting a lot bigger, especially non-dominant co-doms.. They work great.. It doesn't take much cutting 1"-2" diameter is usually plenty) to effect apical dominance and just let the tree take over from there..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom