Working on a topped tree questions.

[islandarb]

Mick is absolutely right, old silvers have almost no ability to control decay. We have many around here and most have been topped at some time in the past. They all have massive amounts of decay. Yet there they are, year after year, storm after storm, with trees around them in much better condition failing.

If the situation allows, I am inclined to leave old trees because the benefits they provide are substantial. If you want to prune it, it has a lot to work with and not much in the way of targets, I'd say go for it. But don't just re-top it, reduce it to smaller laterals growing in the proper direction and leave any interior growth you can.

I endorse this. 100%. Have done it more times than I can remember. Most are still around thriving.

 

[macrocarpa]

Just a thought but I think repeat pollarding visits would be hard sale where topping silver maples is the norm. When I lived in Northeast Tennessee I worked on countless previously topped silver maples and I just cut out the dead & thinned the canopy. At the time, I thought I was doing crown restoration. In that part of the country they were usually perplexed and wanted to see a drastic reduction in tree height and I would say if they want a tree the size of a dogwood I recommend removal and replacement with a tree the size of a dogwood. Obviously I also informed them the tree is structurally compromise due to the previous topping and prone to storm damage and had all these discussions before I did any work to the tree.

This was before I was exposed to a lot of talk about acceptable crown reduction/retrenchment work and I have my doubts about how effective this is on a silver maples anyway. (Started going to Gilman conferences etc) In hindsight, maybe these people would’ve been better off just rehiring the toppers like they were accustomed to. It makes for great woodpecker habitat = a good coping mechanism.

Thankfully, I don’t deal with topping anymore.

 

[Matias]

I am following this thread closely, because my area is full of hacks/toppers. one guy even still advertises it on his billboard.

 

[Mick Dempsey!]

I will top ‘em, re-top ‘em ad Infinitum.
A lot depends on the species, basswood, hornbeam and red oak will take it on the chin no problem.

 

[Luzl78]

the New Jersey tree police fine us for topping or shaping anything.

 

[Matias]

I will top ‘em, re-top ‘em ad Infinitum.
A lot depends on the species, basswood, hornbeam and red oak will take it on the chin no problem.

I suppose money talks. I did as close to a topping as I could still feel ok about recently, and the client was really happy after all. He initially asked me to whack it down to 12' and I got most of it under 16', save for a few spindly bits. I couldn't ID the tree, but I kept all cuts under 4" except one 5" branch that just had no business being in there. I was done in 2 hours, and he tipped me nicely. Good to know that those species handle it well. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Mick Dempsey!]

I suppose money talks. I did as close to a topping as I could still feel ok about recently, and the client was really happy after all. He initially asked me to whack it down to 12' and I got most of it under 16', save for a few spindly bits. I couldn't ID the tree, but I kept all cuts under 4" except one 5" branch that just had no business being in there. I was done in 2 hours, and he tipped me nicely. Good to know that those species handle it well. I'll keep it in mind.

It’s not just about money.
Sometimes it’s the right solution, right species, right location.

Client’s happy, tree is retained instead of removed, you get work every few years, I fail to see the downside.

This hornbeam was close to a property, client didn’t want it out so hat-racked it.
I guarantee you it’ll be fine, will throw out and look good, retop in 10/20/30 years, then we’ll all be dead so who cares?

 

[Neill]

It’s not just about money.
Sometimes it’s the right solution, right species, right location.

Client’s happy, tree is retained instead of removed, you get work every few years, I fail to see the downside.

This hornbeam was close to a property, client didn’t want it out so hat-racked it.
I guarantee you it’ll be fine, will throw out and look good, retop in 10/20/30 years, then we’ll all be dead so who cares?

That’s some clean cutting, super even from that view. Nice

If you’re going to top, can at least make it look intentional, cut to a targeted size, and be neat

I personally would be scared/ apprehensive to climb and work on the tree in the OP. Both on a safety scale and purpose

 

[macrocarpa]

It’s not just about money.
Sometimes it’s the right solution, right species, right location.

Client’s happy, tree is retained instead of removed, you get work every few years, I fail to see the downside.

This hornbeam was close to a property, client didn’t want it out so hat-racked it.
I guarantee you it’ll be fine, will throw out and look good, retop in 10/20/30 years, then we’ll all be dead so who cares?

What kind of chipper is that? I don’t know why, but I am intrigued by European chippers. I think because they seem to specialize in smaller scale chippers geared more for pruning. Forst is selling in the US now. I remember you saying they can be a headache.

 

[Lupin_IV]

Lots of silver maples on my side of town, less to the west where the biome starts to change.

Some topped, holding up great. Topping is not usually the problem with these - cutting large lower laterals is. In the modern day, many companies lift them infinitely - “high and tight” - myself included. It’s usually not any better. I try to speak my piece but the customer decides in the end. If I do it vs a company who only thinks about the aesthetic and knows little about the why, I can make subtle choices as to where to cut. I saw somewhere recently as arborists, we choose where to place the decay. Sometimes it’s okay to go in and salvage, cutting wisely. Sometimes you go in and see a cavity filled with water and shit in a bad spot.

For every customer willing to listen and follow your treecentric philosophy to tree care, there may be 3,7,10, or 69 who will pass right over your bid and hire someone else, who may not give a shit at all. Maybe wise to find a nice common ground and help the tree where you can. In this day and age, I have only ran into 1 or 2 I couldn’t get to understand almost immediately topping is bad and have never had to do it. Most folks are reasonable - at least around here. Topping is a pain in the ass anyway. Why am I talking still?

 

[SeanRuel]

DSMc s description is on the nose imo. No high risk targets. Reduction to smaller upright growth and also reduction of width at the same time

To quote an old foreman "save the stems, no one really looks up"

Plan ahead and leave a good high solid fork that can catch a throw line in 5 years

 

[islandarb]

It’s not just about money.
Sometimes it’s the right solution, right species, right location.

Client’s happy, tree is retained instead of removed, you get work every few years, I fail to see the downside.

This hornbeam was close to a property, client didn’t want it out so hat-racked it.
I guarantee you it’ll be fine, will throw out and look good, retop in 10/20/30 years, then we’ll all be dead so who cares?

A ranger man. Nice truck, I am an isuzu dmax man.

 

[Mick Dempsey!]

What kind of chipper is that? I don’t know why, but I am intrigued by European chippers. I think because they seem to specialize in smaller scale chippers geared more for pruning. Forst is selling in the US now. I remember you saying they can be a headache.

Timberwolf 230, British made.
Timberwolf were recently bought by The Alamo Group, who own Boxer, Rayco and Morbark which is a bit of a shame as they were an Independent Uk owned company.
V1505 diesel kubota engine.

I’ve had bigger (still have a German made 75hp Schliesing) but pound for pound it’s the best chipper I’ve ever had.
750kg so 1653lbs, meaning you can push it around like a supermarket trolley.

 

[islandarb]

Timberwolf 230, British made.
Timberwolf were recently bought by The Alamo Group, who own Boxer, Rayco and Morbark which is a bit of a shame as they were an Independent Uk owned company.
V1505 diesel kubota engine.

I’ve had bigger (still have a German made 75hp Schliesing) but pound for pound it’s the best chipper I’ve ever had.
750kg so 1653lbs, meaning you can push it around like a supermarket trolley.

That would suit this island well. Used a tracked timberwolf in the UK. Wife is British, we tried moving there. I lasted 4.5 months. Still holiday there in the summer. But got tickets back to my paradise. Timberwolf are awesome chippers, especially if ya got a unimog. Just kidding.

 

[southsoundtree]

I have very little experience with silver maples.

How risky did that tree (from a distance) look to you for climbing and free dropping or small rigging?

I'm going to Guess it is low risk.

I would avoid rigging big.

 

[southsoundtree]

Retooping is not = to pollarding! It’s just retopping.

Pollarding is done within short intervals training the tree as a sapling or very small immature tree. The intervals are typically 1-7 years apart and the most common are 2-3 years. Little to no decay develops in the heads, knobs or clubs. Traditionally done for harvesting.
Topping a tree, at an appreciable dimeter size, which will easily develop decay and then a decade or two later whacking off all the new stuff isn’t pollarding. SOMETIMES ITS WARRANTED and acceptable if managed. Let’s not mince words and confuse the custies.

Yes some thinning out of stems that will most likely cause weak inclusions, taking deadwood and thinning or more minor reduction is all that is probably needed for tree ‘health’. Possibly some thinning (removal) of some of the most poorly attached reiterations and reduction of the remaining if there is a target ‘threat’ on a portion could be needed but that’s not to be gleaned from a photo.

Rant over, but in my experience pollarding is poorly understood

I Think Treeco was joking without a smiley.

 

[evo]

I Think Treeco was joking without a smiley.

I thought so too. But rather just put it out there, some young arborist might read it 10 years from now. So not ment as anything direct but to a broader audience within the innerwebs

 

[ATH]

I didn't get good pictures of this...only got a pic at all because I was texting owner to make sure we could pull in between the bushes. (I should take more before and after pics...).

We pruned this one Tuesday.

Just dead wood, low branches over the roof, some rubbing branches, and poorly attached over the roof. The big trunk off to the right has a twisted longitudinal split. If that were over the roof, we'd have had a different discussion about keeping the tree. I don't think this is going to be around in 50-75 years...but I wouldn't be surprised if its still kicking along in 20.

I try not to put big wounds on the trunks of trees....but there were a couple here where I thought that was the best option. The hesitation is introducing rot into the trunk. That's water under the bridge with this tree. Also, by the time that rot is a problem, this tree is already into bigger problems.

All that said, it not has plenty of space away from the roof. Low probability that any significant branches fall to the house. The biggest things we removed are marked in red. Otherwise, just some general clean up. I don't think an "after" pic from the same spot would be significantly different except there's less over the roof.

 

[Mick Dempsey!]

That’s some clean cutting, super even from that view. Nice

If you’re going to top, can at least make it look intentional, cut to a targeted size, and be neat

Agreed, don’t do it half-arsed, commit to it and go for shape.