Complacency

[VenasNursery]

It could still offend other companies
It doesn’t offend me but
We operate in the safest manner and hold up to the best standards
We take pride in everything we do

Big problem for me is simply time not enough to go around
Family and Business not even friends (kind of sad )
So for me I just don’t have the time to go take a test and then to keep up with credits
So I’m a “Tree Guy” or knowledgeable arborist but not a educated arborist
I only can blame myself
It is what it is
I’m happy and proud for a 11th grade dropout

 

[VenasNursery]

Big difference between not being a certified arborist but being knowledgeable about trees and providing a high quality service, and just having a chainsaw, no insurance and calling yourself a tree guy, bidding ridiculously low prices to win jobs over tree companies that are insured, etc.

So I just call them people Pirates
I believe we need them
Pirates only make us look better if possible lol

 

[markra]

Ive only been a climber for 6 years now and i know alot of you have been turning those chains way longer but the one thing i have noticed in my 6 years is the most common safety risk is complacency and its something i fall victim to at times. So as a remedy i try to notice my comfort level and when its through the roof i think to myself that this is my most dangerous time! I think harder on things im doing and stop complacency. Please pass this onto to your guys as well thr same as i do. I notice one of my guys getting really comfortable and i make sure to have this talk and remind them that this extreme comfort you are feeling can be the most dangerous thing you've encountered as a climber because before comfort you are cautious about everything adding an unknown safety to yourself.

so right, I came from a commercial skydiving background and in that discipline as well, "complacency" is the killer. It's so hard to avoid when one becomes "experienced/comfortable", it creeps in slowly. Complacency got me after completing over 1000 jumps and 10 years of jumping, a broken spine in 2 places and foot as well as seeing many other "experienced" peers die as well. Am new to climbing and see many similarities, relying on very complex safety chains, where incorrect assumptions can come back to bite you. A great mantra I use on every climb and jump is "What can go possibly go wrong???" and asking what backups I have in place "when " it does goes wrong. If we are doing this long enough "it will.
Most of the most experienced surviving jumpers I met were those who were the most "meticulous around safety" respected the dangers and they were very wary about who they worked with. Jumpers and climbers who are "comfortable" with these disciplines I would steer clear of. Just like jumping, climbing gear even has big manufacturers warning labels on their gear stating that what we are doing is dangerous and could result in injury or death, even when we do every thing right.

 

[Dan Cobb]

Glad you survived and recovered well enough to climb. That's got to be a minority. Back in the saddle, so to speak.

 

[markra]

Glad you survived and recovered well enough to climb. That's got to be a minority. Back in the saddle, so to speak.

thanks for that, I had to learn to walk again whilst in spinal unit and after an incredible amount of pain and a big reality check. I must admit I was never "comfortable" in any jump I ever did and that's because I knew how many things can go wrong. I made one silly mistake and it got me. One thing I learnt , "Humility" and healthy amount of fear is good and to always keep learning and questioning what I am doing. I have found it scary to start climbing after my experience, but have learnt a lot about SRT, my current chosen method of working a tree at this point. I have come to this channel because I want to learn more from folks on here. When I read about "complacency" and those being "comfortable " these are topics I know very well so thought I would share. These are lessons that I have learnt the hard way, it takes a long time to heal. I have read the stats that tree workers have 3 x the chance of being seriously injured or killed than law enforcement personnel so the day I start feeling "comfortable", I will find something else to do.

 

[evo]

thanks for that, I had to learn to walk again whilst in spinal unit and after an incredible amount of pain and a big reality check. I must admit I was never "comfortable" in any jump I ever did and that's because I knew how many things can go wrong. I made one silly mistake and it got me. One thing I learnt , "Humility" and healthy amount of fear is good and to always keep learning and questioning what I am doing. I have found it scary to start climbing after my experience, but have learnt a lot about SRT, my current chosen method of working a tree at this point. I have come to this channel because I want to learn more from folks on here. When I read about "complacency" and those being "comfortable " these are topics I know very well so thought I would share. These are lessons that I have learnt the hard way, it takes a long time to heal. I have read the stats that tree workers have 3 x the chance of being seriously injured or killed than law enforcement personnel so the day I start feeling "comfortable", I will find something else to do.

With complacency it’s always the silly little mistakes or the accumulation of them.
I’ve gotten lucky, with about 4 significant injuries but none with severe lasting effects other than a fucked up arm from over use/abuse. With complacency it’s not very often the big stuff gets ya but the super ‘minor’ but critical details...

 

[rico]

thanks for that, I had to learn to walk again whilst in spinal unit and after an incredible amount of pain and a big reality check. I must admit I was never "comfortable" in any jump I ever did and that's because I knew how many things can go wrong. I made one silly mistake and it got me. One thing I learnt , "Humility" and healthy amount of fear is good and to always keep learning and questioning what I am doing. I have found it scary to start climbing after my experience, but have learnt a lot about SRT, my current chosen method of working a tree at this point. I have come to this channel because I want to learn more from folks on here. When I read about "complacency" and those being "comfortable " these are topics I know very well so thought I would share. These are lessons that I have learnt the hard way, it takes a long time to heal. I have read the stats that tree workers have 3 x the chance of being seriously injured or killed than law enforcement personnel so the day I start feeling "comfortable", I will find something else to do.

I'm confused here. You admit that you were "never comfortable", and also admit that
"complacency got you", causing severe injury...So you became complacent without ever experiencing comfort, yet you are now blaming complacency on comfort?

 

[markra]

yes i can see how it might be seen as confusing, every jump, just before the door opened, everyone I knew including myself were amped up(definately not comfortable ) caused by excitement or fear what ever you want to call it. Afterall it was from 15000 feet and there is a lot of things that can go wrong before you land. However, once you are in freefall you are committed and you get on with it. What caused my downfall was trying a technique under canopy that I felt "comfortable enough " to try. Something I didn't forsee, an unintended consequence, which resulted in me impacting the ground at high speed. Now it's not like I was a newbie to skydiving. I was all but fully tandem rated, had a USPA D and coach licenses, about to get my instructor rating. I all also know of another instructor died do a similar thing after 9000 jumps. What I suffered from "the law of familiarity", being "comfortable" and overestimating my ability. I have seen this many times from others. It's a human frailty, and when I hear of people saying they are "comfortable", I know too well where they could be heading. Anyway I am not saying to be overaly fearful as this causes problems to. I guess what I am saying is it's great to enjoy skydiving and climbing alike, they are both a lot of fun, but they both heavily involve gravity, a serious danger. Comfortable is not a word that sits right with me given the potential consequences of error(a word I would choose watching TV). I realise there are those who will say "it will never happen to me"," I know what I am doing" at the start I was one of the more careful and conservative jumpers at the dopzone, but it did happen to me. Anyway I don't want to ramble on about this much more, some will get it and some won't and may have to go through the same learning process I did. But it hurts and a friend of mine never got the chance to learn. He's dead.

 

[DSMc]

I think that there is a bit of confusion with terminology in this thread. Though complacency and competency sound similar, they are very different.

There are four stages of learning a complex skill. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, and finally unconscious competence.

Unconscious incompetence is the greenie who thinks they are great but actually have no knowledge or understanding of what they are doing.

Conscious incompetence is reached when you realize how much you don't know and have not yet mastered any technical skills.

Conscious competence is reached when your knowledge and skills have combined enough that you are very good at what you do but all tasks demand your full attention.

Unconscious competence, is a master craftsman that not only has the knowledge and skills needed but can, at the same time, free up a part of their mental awareness to allow progressive actions.

It is very possible to work within a dangerous activity without fear 'and' without complacency.

 

[markra]

yes DSMc I think you partially correct, but not without "respect" for what you are doing, the ropes are probably not stronger, equipment not more reliable, just your experience and knowledge. However fear gets a bad rap, it's one's survival instinct. the four needs you have listed above I think over simplify the human factors, psychology of dangerous sports and occupations. Anyway I will leave it at that. The thread was about "complacency" and that is dangerous. Being comfortable I feel is an inappropriate word to use in my experience. Competance? Do you ever really know "enough" ?.
But afterall these are only words which different things to different people

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I have some thoughts about this.

The definition of complacency as follows:

“self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies when it comes to safety”

Key terms here are “unawareness of actual dangers when it comes to safety.”

You can be comfortable and confident but also be aware and have a healthy respect for safety and the risks associated with what you’re doing.

An example of complacency could be knowing you aren’t qualified to perform a specialized task (like line clearance for example), but because you might have years of climbing experience you think that you can do it anyway because you consider yourself safe, skilled, but your lack of appropriate training for the specific task that you are unqualified for could mean you are unaware of all the potential dangers that exist simply because of the fact you haven’t been properly trained. Proceeding forward knowing you haven’t been properly trained, while maybe you’re feeling comfortable and confident, could also be considered complacent.

Having a high comfort level doesn’t necessarily mean you are being complacent, however I think it’s important to be fully self-aware and be aware of the situation and ask yourself whether there are any potential hazards that you may have overlooked, etc. even if you are feeling comfortable and confident.

 

[markra]

I quote the book Rappelling -Bob Gaines page 151 --- "John Dill, head of YOSAR(Yosemite Search and Rescue) cites 3 states of mind that regularly contribute to accidents :
Ignorance, casualness, and distraction.
Ignorance is being unaware of a potential danger.
""Casualness is not taking things seriously enough -COMPLACENCY reinforced by getting away with practicing poor safety habits when nothing goes wrong.""
Distraction when something takes your mind off the important task at hand..."

I have heard from the most experienced Skydiving mentors many times "and I thought I had seen it all".

I have also looked up the Accidents North American Climbing and "complacency" as a root cause keeps popping up and the deaths aren't just the inexperienced but many who are probably considered highly experienced and trained up to expert.

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org

A feeling that you are properly trained(a belief that you know enough) in a particular task, able to handle every situation., ie. every type of tree,every equipment combination, every type of time constraint, every type of personality of worker you work with, every type of pushy impatient customer Or Boss, As you add more variables the risks compound or become less foreseeable..

This is just like skydiving, I may be an expert well trained in a discipline say - canopy pilot, but combine other factors a late night , weather, equipment component malfunctions, other inexperienced canopy pilots, conflicting aircraft traffic, ground hazards, etc complexity of risks grow quickly.

Your comfort level will be probably depend on your "assessment of risk" or "risk perception"


I quote from

The psychology of risk perception - Harvard Health

Risk perception is rarely entirely rational. Instead, people assess risks using a mixture of cognitive skills (weighing the evidence, using reasoning and logic to reach conclusions) and emotional appraisals (intuition or imagination). After review...

www.health.harvard.edu

"Risk perception is rarely entirely rational. Instead, people assess risks using a mixture of cognitive skills (weighing the evidence, using reasoning and logic to reach conclusions) and emotional appraisals (intuition or imagination)"

I'll leave a nice quote "If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?

 

[RogerM]

what a thread.. great thought excercise.. here's my contribution.. I developed my specific skill set (better than some, worse than others) always saying to myself before climbing... "comfort equals safety" Boy have I been uncomfortable, to be honest. I didn't read Harvard's risk perception study< but as a matter of fact, the more comfortable I was, the better things seemed to go. When I nudged the level of being uncomfortable, things were a bit more sketchy. As always, our collective "take" on complacency seems to be an onion. You can be comfortable and cognizant at the same time. .02

 

[markra]

i am sure most of the experienced people in the accident reports I looked at were comfortable before they had their accident.

Not to say that being overly fearful is not harmful, causing adverse effects on you, ie. tense up resulting loss of dexterity.

I have read that most mountain climbing accidents often occur on the way down, you're tired, you've met your goal, the so called "hardest part is behind you".

I found a great article which I will dig up which was effectively saying what you fear may not be that risky, but what you feel "comfortable" safe with may be more riskier than you think.


Perception does not necessarily equal reality.

 

[rico]

i am sure most of the experienced people in the accident reports I looked at were comfortable before they had their accident.

Not to to say that being overly fearful is also harmful, causing adverse effects on you, ie. tense up resulting loss of dexterity.

I have read that most mountain climbing accidents often occur on the way down, you're tired, you've met your goal, the so called "hardest part is behind you".

I found a great article which I will dig up which was effectively saying what you fear may not be that risky, but what you feel "comfortable" safe with may be more riskier than you think.


Perception does not not necessarily equal reality.

Years making a living in the saddle - over 42
Years being truly comfortable in the saddle - over 37
Times I have experienced complacency in those 42+ years - ZERO

 

[MatKep]

For quite a few years, I conducted all the root cause analyses for accidents in a heavy industrial setting. 1500 employees at 29 locations. The most common factor in my experience was a lack of hazard recognition. People tend to be cognizant of the obvious hazards, but often fail to anticipate all the "what ifs" of what can go wrong. Also, workers seem more likely to be injured performing low attention, high familiarity tasks than when performing high attention (high risk), low familiarity tasks, as the latter tend to prompt a heightened focus on safety considerations. Another common theme is workers taking a risk and having no consequence many times, leading them to minimize their assessment of the risk (which is kind of getting at the complacency issue.) We required all employees/crews to perform a written job safety briefing (JSB) prior to each job, identifying the tasks, hazards and hazard mitigation strategies. Even though a JSB can never really list every possible hazard, industry research shows a significant benefit from performing JSBs (also called JSAs, JHAs, etc.) We had great support for our safety programs from the top down and rewarded safety success.

Spot on. The JHA/JSA does two things really well: 1. forces veterans to slow down, think about the entire process end to end, all possible risks involved, and how to mitigate them, and 2. gives the uninitiated a clear, written summary of the same. Some folks develop this as personal habit while others need the formalized process and paperwork for reinforcement. Either way the result is the same and worth the effort every time... I really miss doing hazops and FTAs

 

[markra]

Nice one Dan, this is pretty well what I mean by "comfortable":----------------------- "...workers seem more likely to be injured performing low attention, high familiarity tasks than when performing high attention (high risk), low familiarity tasks,

Was just wondering if there would be more value finding those in the industry who have had serious accidents(who are still around to talk about them) and understanding what their attitude and thought processes were before their accident compared to after. What lessons they have learnt, to share.

Rather than hearing from those who have not had one, yet?, and who feel comfortable with the status quo.

Comparing how many years experience with no accident or how relaxed someone is with their current situation provides no lessons.

I was one of the "I have over a so many 1000 jumps, x years in the industry and have lots of qualifications and am comfortable with where I am", but I tell you what I learnt loud and clear, "humility" . I't can happen to me, and it did.

No matter how experienced I am the 10,000 jump can kill me just as easy as the 1st.

 

[rico]

As I said earlier, IMHO it is folks who "never get comfortable" and are operating in fear mode that tend to be in hurry, cut corners, get complacent, miss hidden hazards, and do stupid shit that gets themselves or others hurt or killed....

Fear can be our enemy. It clouds our judgment and decision making processes. It can cause the fear based climber to try and remove themselves from the dangerous situation as quickly as possible, which in turns causes them to be in a hurry, cut corners, miss hidden dangers, and do stupid shit. I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count.

Studies of the human brain have time and time again shown that fear can be very counter productive to making sound decisions, learning, and calmly assessing dangers, but unfortunately you are too busy screaming from your soapbox about your less than stellar past to even consider the idea that being in a state of calm/comfort can actually help in all these processes, thus increasing our chances of stying safe..

 

[rope-a-dope]

For anyone that hasn't seen it.

 

[markra]

As I said earlier, IMHO it is folks who "never get comfortable" and are operating in fear mode that tend to be in hurry, cut corners, get complacent, miss hidden hazards, and do stupid shit that gets themselves or others hurt or killed....

Fear can be our enemy. It clouds our judgment and decision making processes. It can cause the fear based climber to try and remove themselves from the dangerous situation as quickly as possible, which in turns causes them to be in a hurry, cut corners, miss hidden dangers, and do stupid shit. I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count.

Studies of the human brain have time and time again shown that fear can be very counter productive to making sound decisions, learning, and calmly assessing dangers, but unfortunately you are too busy screaming from your soapbox about your less than stellar past to even consider the idea that being in a state of calm/comfort can actually help in all these processes, thus increasing our chances of stying safe..