Complacency

treesap

Well-Known Member
Location
east TN
im my opinion Complacent would mean "Oh I know what im doing, I wont get hurt" vs being comfortable "I have done this thousands of times, I know the risks and how to avoid them, and im not shaking out of my skin at the 3 inch drop my climb line just did"
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
That is wicked incorrect Eric. I have met and watched many, many 40-60 year old climbers and tree men who exhibit all of those traits.
I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sven... Being truly comfortable isn't about age, its about proper experience, and in my experience it is generally the comfortable climber who doesn't cut corners or take unnesccessary ricks.. Instead they take the time to climb higher and take a smaller top... Instead of taking that log in 1 piece they take it in 2-3 pieces.. Instead of saying fuck it on that hard leaner and assuming their undercut is good enough, the truly comfortable climber will take the time needed to make sure each and every cut is as close to perfect as possible...Instead of setting a "thats good enough rigging point", the comfortable climber will take the time needed to set the perfect rigging point. Instead of hoping that they set a true tip-tie on a top/limb, the comfortable climber will go out there and make sure they did.

It has also been my experience that it is the fearful/uncomfortable climbers who tends to cut corners, be in a hurry, display bad judgement, and do stupid shit.. Seen it a 1000 times.....

IMHO being fearful and uncomfortable while aloft is not a good thing.. Being respectful and aware of any potential danger is...Big difference...
 

Dan Cobb

Well-Known Member
Location
Hoover
... in my experience it is generally the comfortable climber who doesn't cut corners or take unnesccessary ricks.. Instead they take the time to climb higher and take a smaller top... Instead of taking that log in 1 piece they take it in 2-3 pieces.. Instead of saying fuck it on that hard leaner and assuming their undercut is good enough, the truly comfortable climber will take the time needed to make sure each and every cut is as close to perfect as possible...Instead of setting a "thats good enough rigging point", the comfortable climber will take the time needed to set the perfect rigging point. Instead of hoping that they set a true tip-tie on a top/limb, the comfortable climber will go out there and make sure they did.
I agree, but for some reason my brain wants to substitute "competent" for "comfortable" in your post.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sven... Being truly comfortable isn't about age, its about proper experience, and in my experience it is generally the comfortable climber who doesn't cut corners or take unnesccessary ricks.. Instead they take the time to climb higher and take a smaller top... Instead of taking that log in 1 piece they take it in 2-3 pieces.. Instead of saying fuck it on that hard leaner and assuming their undercut is good enough, the truly comfortable climber will take the time needed to make sure each and every cut is as close to perfect as possible...Instead of setting a "thats good enough rigging point", the comfortable climber will take the time needed to set the perfect rigging point. Instead of hoping that they set a true tip-tie on a top/limb, the comfortable climber will go out there and make sure they did.

It has also been my experience that it is the fearful/uncomfortable climbers who tends to cut corners, be in a hurry, display bad judgement, and do stupid shit.. Seen it a 1000 times.....

IMHO being fearful and uncomfortable while aloft is not a good thing.. Being respectful and aware of any potential danger is...Big difference...
I have been saying this for years here about these videos of guys taking huge pieces and narrowly wrecking shit. Others here have argued its just being really good and next level. Comfort and skilled means taking all necesary steps to assure sucsess. Example climbing higher taking that top in 2-3 pieces instead of 1 giant piece from a bucket and barely missing the house. Question, whats your opinion of side loading a spar while bombing big wood because the company you are sub contracting for didnt provide you with a long enough lowering line to do it right?
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
Question, whats your opinion of side loading a spar while bombing big wood because the company you are sub contracting for didnt provide you with a long enough lowering line to do it right?
I believe this is in reference to Mr Shultz's vid. I understand his choice to power through and get the job done, but its not something I would do. I myself would have gotten the right rope or walked. Thanks, but I'll pass on side-loading a spar with big wood because you and/or the outfit your are working for neglected to bring the proper lowering line. This is why I run 300 ft, 400 ft, or 600 ft lowering lines.. Fuck coming up an inch short.
 

MA Arborist

Active Member
Location
Cape Cod
I have been saying this for years here about these videos of guys taking huge pieces and narrowly wrecking shit. Others here have argued its just being really good and next level. Comfort and skilled means taking all necesary steps to assure sucsess. Example climbing higher taking that top in 2-3 pieces instead of 1 giant piece from a bucket and barely missing the house. Question, whats your opinion of side loading a spar while bombing big wood because the company you are sub contracting for didnt provide you with a long enough lowering line to do it right?
Yea, taking chances seems to be mistaken for “skill” these days. A true professional climber is smooth, efficient and safe.
 

Serf Life

Well-Known Member
Location
Maine Island
I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sven... Being truly comfortable isn't about age, its about proper experience, and in my experience it is generally the comfortable climber who doesn't cut corners or take unnesccessary ricks.. Instead they take the time to climb higher and take a smaller top... Instead of taking that log in 1 piece they take it in 2-3 pieces.. Instead of saying fuck it on that hard leaner and assuming their undercut is good enough, the truly comfortable climber will take the time needed to make sure each and every cut is as close to perfect as possible...Instead of setting a "thats good enough rigging point", the comfortable climber will take the time needed to set the perfect rigging point. Instead of hoping that they set a true tip-tie on a top/limb, the comfortable climber will go out there and make sure they did.

It has also been my experience that it is the fearful/uncomfortable climbers who tends to cut corners, be in a hurry, display bad judgement, and do stupid shit.. Seen it a 1000 times.....

IMHO being fearful and uncomfortable while aloft is not a good thing.. Being respectful and aware of any potential danger is...Big difference...
I agree with that and am a big proponent of climbing higher and getting out farther (SRT ftw). The disagreement was solely that longevity is never accomplished by those cutting corners with big ego and bravado. Hey Murphy where ya at? I think basic mindfulness can take the place of the OP’s renewing fear etc. I also have a loop in my head like Reg’s example that can pull me back to mindfulness if my focus wavers. Being afraid is not enjoyable and I love my job, damn comfortable too.
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
Location
Lafayette
I believe this is in reference to Mr Shultz's vid. I understand his choice to power through and get the job done, but its not something I would do. I myself would have gotten the right rope or walked. Thanks, but I'll pass on side-loading a spar with big wood because you and/or the outfit your are working for neglected to bring the proper lowering line. This is why I run 300 ft, 400 ft, or 600 ft lowering lines.. Fuck coming up an inch short.
Respect. I believe thats the appropriate response from a high level climber. The point I was making is bombing out wood on a vertical stem without a tag shows comfort and competency. Side loading a spar while negative rigging big wood because you dont have a long enough rope, easy problem to remedy, is saying fuck it meaning complacency. I would think a high level sub contractor working in Norcal would know what they are getting into and bring the right equipment to get the shit to the ground.
 
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Chaplain242

Well-Known Member
My goal.. and I’ve begun to feel glimpses of it... is a zen state of mind. Respecting the risks, fully aware, but fluid and free.

I can own my complacency in those moments where I took an unnecessary risk. It was never worth it.

PS I am disappointed that many posts on this thread are excessively gendered. Men, men, men. Even if it is not your intention, by using this wording you contribute to a feeling, from an outsiders perspective, that this industry does not welcome women.
I am sure it varies by location but ‘guys’ is a gender neutral term around here, and some women in worksite get agitated if called ‘girls’ etc. and nothing to do with modern gender theories. Just that generic terms based on predominant sex based roles have been used for hundreds of years, and to be excluded from them just to make an obvious point that they are not men is insulting in itself, as they are capable on a worksite and don’t need distinguishing even if it uses an old school ‘men’, ‘guys’ etc because it’s the skill set that counts...
 

Stumpsprouts

Well-Known Member
Location
Asheville
I am sure it varies by location but ‘guys’ is a gender neutral term around here, and some women in worksite get agitated if called ‘girls’ etc. and nothing to do with modern gender theories. Just that generic terms based on predominant sex based roles have been used for hundreds of years, and to be excluded from them just to make an obvious point that they are not men is insulting in itself, as they are capable on a worksite and don’t need distinguishing even if it uses an old school ‘men’, ‘guys’ etc because it’s the skill set that counts...
Thanks for the reply. I know semantics is an eye roller for a lot of folks but I think it’s important. Some posts here refer to the generic tree men, guys. And others to climbers, workers, arborists, people, etc. The latter wording is more informative, professional, and inclusive.

As for on the job site, yeah that’s different. Ive been lucky to have many female coworkers. Man, dude, guy, has always been fine. Lately been using the term ‘buddy’ a whole heck of a lot for everyone. Positive vibes.
 

Chaplain242

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply. I know semantics is an eye roller for a lot of folks but I think it’s important. Some posts here refer to the generic tree men, guys. And others to climbers, workers, arborists, people, etc. The latter wording is more informative, professional, and inclusive.

As for on the job site, yeah that’s different. Ive been lucky to have many female coworkers. Man, dude, guy, has always been fine. Lately been using the term ‘buddy’ a whole heck of a lot for everyone. Positive vibes.
Funnily enough there are some areas that the term buddy is an insult, don’t know why, just is... go figure

Don’t agree with the informative, professional and inclusive bit... specific maybe... to me the informal discussion is less distracting than the formal... bit like constant use of my surname when addressed in a social discussion - I find it odd or strange when not specifically required...
 

Reach

Well-Known Member
Location
Atglen, PA
Thanks for the reply. I know semantics is an eye roller for a lot of folks but I think it’s important. Some posts here refer to the generic tree men, guys. And others to climbers, workers, arborists, people, etc. The latter wording is more informative, professional, and inclusive.

As for on the job site, yeah that’s different. Ive been lucky to have many female coworkers. Man, dude, guy, has always been fine. Lately been using the term ‘buddy’ a whole heck of a lot for everyone. Positive vibes.
Around here, Dude is somewhat derogatory, and buddy is quite so. Buddy is a fine name for your 10 year old son, but a workmate? It’s rather demeaning, on par with calling another grown person “son” or “kid.”
 

Chaplain242

Well-Known Member
Around here, Dude is somewhat derogatory, and buddy is quite so. Buddy is a fine name for your 10 year old son, but a workmate? It’s rather demeaning, on par with calling another grown person “son” or “kid.”
Yet in the Big Lebowski he celebrates being ‘The Dude’...
 

Stumpsprouts

Well-Known Member
Location
Asheville
Around here, Dude is somewhat derogatory, and buddy is quite so. Buddy is a fine name for your 10 year old son, but a workmate? It’s rather demeaning, on par with calling another grown person “son” or “kid.”
This is really interesting! It really depends on the crew I guess.

Sorry to the OP, I really wasn’t trying to hijack this thread! I think the conversation about complacency is great to have.
 

VenasNursery

Well-Known Member
Location
Michigan
So you guys think I try to “correct” customers on what they should call a tree company?

I’m not saying I actually say that to people or get mad, I’m just making a point on here that’s all.
Educate vs correction

people take things differently

you have to be careful doing so I try to do it in a joking manner and educate before you have to correct
 

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