Complacency

markra

New Member
Location
wellington
Rico I think it's clear to everyone here from the outside that you have a big ego, and when people with your size of ego have their ideas challenged they often resort to insulting people and pushing others down by big noting their years of experience.
Unfortunately no one can tell them anything and are often a danger to those around them. People are scared to question the strongly opinionated attitudes.

If you thought carefully about what I am saying, there are many examples experienced skydivers, climbers, tree workers being seriously injured or killed,was it fear that killed them. Anyway this thread started with Arborspective's valid concerns about complacency then your big ego piped up calling his concerns "rubbish".

Anyway it's time to actually quote someone actually who knows what they are talking about and put to bed the rubbish you are spouting on here.

quoted from Tree Care Industry Association (ever heard of them?) Click on the link.


"The median age of the victim (all incidents) was 39. This relatively high median age suggests that "COMPLACENCY RATHER THAN IGNORANCE plays a significant role in these incidents. Supporting this claim:

  • The typical fall victim was unsecured
  • The typical struck-by victim remained in the drop zone
  • The typical electrocution victim violated MAD and made contact through a conductive tool/object"
It's funny that according to "Rico's logic" they likely forgot to tie in because of fear, stayed in the drop zone because of fear and made contact with an energised wires because of fear? Any no mentionA of fear being a cause. And how many years did you say you have been comfortable in your saddle?, probably while those around you are silently freaking out.

So now go back and say sorry to Arborspective and me why you are at it.

If there more with attitudes like yours out there it's clear to me why your industry has such a poor safety record.


See it's quite funny I 've climbing tree's for only a few months and already I know more than you. LOL
 
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climbingmonkey24

Well-Known Member
Location
United States
@rico does bring up valid points that fear can disrupt one’s thinking processes, make them more anxious and lead to rushing to try and get out of a situation because they are scared, thus increasing the risk for an accident.

To argue that just because one is calm and comfortable in the trees without fear they're complacent isn’t true.

There are times when fear and your “fight or flight” instincts may be present and keep you on your guard for good reason. There are other times when your level of fear might not be totally warranted, but is instead due to mindset / anxiety.

I think what we should be advocating / discussing isn’t that one should be climbing in a fearful state, but how a competent climber can have a respect for and awareness of the dangers and risks present and knowing when to tune into what your mind and body are telling you.
 
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climbingmonkey24

Well-Known Member
Location
United States
If there more with attitudes like yours out there it's clear to me why your industry has such a poor safety record.

And how many years did you say you have been comfortable in your saddle?, probably while those around you are silently freaking out.

So because you’ve been climbing for a few months you’re qualified to determine the psychological state of climbers who have more experience than yourself and how it has influenced the overall safety factor of our industry?
 

Dan Cobb

Well-Known Member
Location
Hoover
If you're experiencing fear in a tree, you should come down. If you lose respect for the potential dangers, you shouldn't be working at heights either.

When you're new and learning, I think the pace and difficulty level should be such to inspire confidence rather than to produce fear.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
This went down a strange path. If you are fearful at height doing this job, you might reconsider your profession choice. A client looked at me after a climb and said that I look comfortable at height. Was it always so. Hell no. Took a couple years while I learned to trust my gear and understand the tree species I work in. Fear is crippling if left unchecked. And becomes a hazard. Complacency is very different. A level head and high concentration on tasks will eliminate this. Not many chances to be had at height using sharp tools and putting large heavy pieces on terra firma if being complacent. Rico has valid points. Do not bark up that tree. You might not agree but taking it personal while admitting you are new to treeing does not sit well with me. Again not personal @markra. Being comfortable working in trees does not equate to complacency.....complacency comes from not paying attention.
 

markra

New Member
Location
wellington
and now out come the A type personalities :). "If you are fearful at height doing this job", you might reconsider your profession choice." - ie if your kahunas aren't big enough or man enough. Hey let's jump to the guy's rescue without reading through a thread and his insults and attitude.

I am not working in your profession(starting to think thank god I am not) I am learning SRT to trim trees and a sport, I came hear to learn from people who have apparently gems to share.

My experience is skydiving, please read back.

Have never met anyone with out fear especially early on. my assertion about fear and complacency is my own experience and training, but also the conclusion of the 2016 TCIA(below)

quote ------"This relatively high median age suggests that "COMPLACENCY RATHER THAN IGNORANCE plays a significant role in these incidents".
2016 report, TCIA's conclusion not mine. see above link. (no mention of fear there).

I'ts obvious when you start out your fear levels are higher until you build experience, then they should diminish over time. But then complacency creeps in. It's the conclusions of the TCIA not mine.

I can see the most I am gonna learn here is how big people's egos are and being told that it is fear that is the real enemy and causing all the accidents and that I wouldn't know anything because of my inexperience.

Seen some with those attitudes in skydiving That industry is very unforgiving probably more dangerous than this one b however because the FAA is involved it is heavily regulated and a lower accident rate per participant.

old saying goes in avaition, "There are Old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots".

Anyway am clearly wasting my time learning anything in here.
 

climbingmonkey24

Well-Known Member
Location
United States
@markra Not to sound like a jerk, but based off your last couple of posts you’re the one that is taking things personally. You say you want to learn from more experienced climbers yet you’re the one throwing insults at others and coming off as you’re right and everyone else is wrong.

That’s not the way to have an educated discussion.

You keep pushing this argument that just because a climber isn’t fearful they become complacent and that is the wrong thing to be advocating that people need to be “afraid” in order to be safe. Yet you refuse to listen to the opinions of people who have been doing this much longer than you.
 
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swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
and now out come the A type personalities :). "If you are fearful at height doing this job", you might reconsider your profession choice." - ie if your kahunas aren't big enough or man enough. Hey let's jump to the guy's rescue without reading through a thread and his insults and attitude.

I am not working in your profession(starting to think thank god I am not) I am learning SRT to trim trees and a sport, I came hear to learn from people who have apparently gems to share.

My experience is skydiving, please read back.

Have never met anyone with out fear especially early on. my assertion about fear and complacency is my own experience and training, but also the conclusion of the 2016 TCIA(below)

quote ------"This relatively high median age suggests that "COMPLACENCY RATHER THAN IGNORANCE plays a significant role in these incidents".
2016 report, TCIA's conclusion not mine. see above link. (no mention of fear there).

I'ts obvious when you start out your fear levels are higher until you build experience, then they should diminish over time. But then complacency creeps in. It's the conclusions of the TCIA not mine.

I can see the most I am gonna learn here is how big people's egos are and being told that it is fear that is the real enemy and causing all the accidents and that I wouldn't know anything because of my inexperience.

Seen some with those attitudes in skydiving That industry is very unforgiving probably more dangerous than this one b however because the FAA is involved it is heavily regulated and a lower accident rate per participant.

old saying goes in avaition, "There are Old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots".

Anyway am clearly wasting my time learning anything in here.
Yo easy there Tiger. TCIA for all it's worth is mainly pencil pushers. Not saying there is no relevance there. But take it with a dose of salt. I would dial it down a bit with your long wordy posts. They usually alienate folk now starting out here. This is no skydiving site. Again nothing personal. Please do not get your panties in twist. We ard discussing, treefolk are a tight knìt breed and so far you have pitched a bit hard for a newbie. Now that is my hardball to you. I just popped some popcorn so am waiting for the shitshow to explode. Dues have to be paid to get respect on de buzz. Dat is fact.
 
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climbingmonkey24

Well-Known Member
Location
United States
I just popped some popcorn

tenor.gif
 
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DSMc

Well-Known Member
Location
Montana
... My experience is skydiving, please read back...

If memory serves, you never actually mentioned the details of your skydiving accident. Was it truly from complacency, an ego -based smugness in your abilities, or was it simply a bad judgment call?

... when you start out your fear levels are higher until you build experience, then they should diminish over time. But then complacency creeps in. It's the conclusions of the TCIA not mine...

Correlation does not prove causation. There are many factors that lead to an accident. Concluding that complacency is the primary cause is tidy but incomplete.

... old saying goes in avaition, "There are Old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots"...

You ever remember hearing about that old pilot, what was his name, oh yeah, Chuck Yeager.
 

Njdelaney

Well-Known Member
Location
Detroit
Comfort does not equal complacency. If you watch any of Rico's videos, what you will see is someone constantly checking, adjusting, re-checking, communicating with his ground person, and exerting control over as many of the variables as a person can be expected to. My opinion is that he is comfortable because he knows what's going on because he's clearly paying all of his attention to the task at hand and being fully present. This is not a problem for any reason. I don't always agree with him or the way he chooses to make a point but the guy knows what he is doing. The TCIA article also says that the data "suggests" some things but doesn't prove them. This is the nature of data. All of the things they note as most likely to kill a person involve either not paying attention or ignoring things known to be dangerous. Let's also clarify language. Fearing something is different than respecting it. Being comfortable doesn't equal being competent. Being scared doesn't equal paying attention. Fear is a physiological reaction designed to help us survive or avoid a dangerous situation. It is not something that should be incorporated into a daily workplace routine. Getting comfortable with doing something that has potential danger doesn't mean you have to stop paying attention. Some people know this, some people learn this by experiencing it, and some people die before the lesson is learned.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
Comfort does not equal complacency. If you watch any of Rico's videos, what you will see is someone constantly checking, adjusting, re-checking, communicating with his ground person, and exerting control over as many of the variables as a person can be expected to. My opinion is that he is comfortable because he knows what's going on because he's clearly paying all of his attention to the task at hand and being fully present. This is not a problem for any reason. I don't always agree with him or the way he chooses to make a point but the guy knows what he is doing. The TCIA article also says that the data "suggests" some things but doesn't prove them. This is the nature of data. All of the things they note as most likely to kill a person involve either not paying attention or ignoring things known to be dangerous. Let's also clarify language. Fearing something is different than respecting it. Being comfortable doesn't equal being competent. Being scared doesn't equal paying attention. Fear is a physiological reaction designed to help us survive or avoid a dangerous situation. It is not something that should be incorporated into a daily workplace routine. Getting comfortable with doing something that has potential danger doesn't mean you have to stop paying attention. Some people know this, some people learn this by experiencing it, and some people die before the lesson is learned.
Spot on. All truths. You articulated facts on point. Kudos.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Location
Barbados
If memory serves, you never actually mentioned the details of your skydiving accident. Was it truly from complacency, an ego -based smugness in your abilities, or was it simply a bad judgment call?



Correlation does not prove causation. There are many factors that lead to an accident. Concluding that complacency is the primary cause is tidy but incomplete.



You ever remember hearing about that old pilot, what was his name, oh yeah, Chuck Yeager.
Digging in Dave. Proper toss.
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
Rico I think it's clear to everyone here from the outside that you have a big ego, and when people with your size of ego have their ideas challenged they often resort to insulting people and pushing others down by big noting their years of experience.
Unfortunately no one can tell them anything and are often a danger to those around them. People are scared to question the strongly opinionated attitudes.

If you thought carefully about what I am saying, there are many examples experienced skydivers, climbers, tree workers being seriously injured or killed,was it fear that killed them. Anyway this thread started with Arborspective's valid concerns about complacency then your big ego piped up calling his concerns "rubbish".

Anyway it's time to actually quote someone actually who knows what they are talking about and put to bed the rubbish you are spouting on here.

quoted from Tree Care Industry Association (ever heard of them?) Click on the link.


"The median age of the victim (all incidents) was 39. This relatively high median age suggests that "COMPLACENCY RATHER THAN IGNORANCE plays a significant role in these incidents. Supporting this claim:

  • The typical fall victim was unsecured
  • The typical struck-by victim remained in the drop zone
  • The typical electrocution victim violated MAD and made contact through a conductive tool/object"
It's funny that according to "Rico's logic" they likely forgot to tie in because of fear, stayed in the drop zone because of fear and made contact with an energised wires because of fear? Any no mentionA of fear being a cause. And how many years did you say you have been comfortable in your saddle?, probably while those around you are silently freaking out.

So now go back and say sorry to Arborspective and me why you are at it.

If there more with attitudes like yours out there it's clear to me why your industry has such a poor safety record.


See it's quite funny I 've climbing tree's for only a few months and already I know more than you. LOL
You feeling a little better after that hissy fit buddy?

If you came here to learn, as you claim, I would strongly suggest that you try a little less talking, and a little more listening... Who knows, you might learn something?
 

markra

New Member
Location
wellington
@rico

no hissy fit, just observations. (although annoyance from a perceived attitude, maybe I misunderstood)

I did come here to learn technical skills, and by the way

I do want to give you credit for your technical expertise and experience and have no doubt that you are very successful in your field. I would be interested to see some of your videos as alluded to by another member.

But I would not get a course on the psychology of risk or having the correct mindset from you because I have found your comments do display an "I 'm alright jack" attitude, trust me I know what I am doing". , dangerous.

Have you considered those who might work with you who may feel nervous and not have the experience doing what you are doing and may feel hesitant to approach you with those concerns. This could be a problem, especially if these are not resolved.

Having fears contrary to some belief, are not a weakness, they are human, understandable and afterall we all have to start somewhere.

The word "Comfortable" to me is a silly word to use in regard to high risk pursuits. I guess it's how we mean the word But also I do know being overally fearful is dangerous to. With me if I am fearful about something, I gather more information, find out what the actual relative risk really is and diminishes it or put in place "risk mitigation strategies", ie. build another layer of saftey ie. redundancy when anchoring. This lowers the concerns on that issue.

Anyway don't want to waste my time, or yours needlesy arguing and see you and a number of others have your own mindsets. Fair enough, but you have not had a major accident that you have mentioned. But I can assure you, If you did, you may see it all differently.

Cheers
 
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RogerM

Well-Known Member
Markra, Don't dissapear, Sky diving is on my bucket list and I'd love to talk to you about it. stick around, the temperature changes. Your input is appreciated as much as everyone else's input.
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
@rico

no hissy fit, just observations. (although annoyance from a perceived attitude, maybe I misunderstood)

I did come here to learn technical skills, and by the way

I do want to give you credit for your technical expertise and experience and have no doubt that you are very successful in your field. I would be interested to see some of your videos as alluded to by another member.

But I would not get a course on the psychology of risk or having the correct mindset from you because I have found your comments do display an "I 'm alright jack" attitude, trust me I know what I am doing". , dangerous.

Have you considered those who might work with you who may feel nervous and not have the experience doing what you are doing and may feel hesitant to approach you with those concerns. This could be a problem, especially if these are not resolved.

Having fears contrary to some belief, are not a weakness, they are human, understandable and afterall we all have to start somewhere.

The word "Comfortable" to me is a silly word to use in regard to high risk pursuits. I guess it's how we mean the word But also I do know being overally fearful is dangerous to. With me if I am fearful about something, I gather more information, find out what the actual relative risk really is and diminishes it or put in place "risk mitigation strategies", ie. build another layer of saftey ie. redundancy when anchoring. This lowers the concerns on that issue.

Anyway don't want to waste my time, or yours needlesy arguing and see you and a number of others have your own mindsets. Fair enough, but you have not had a major accident that you have mentioned. But I can assure you, If you did, you may see it all differently.

Cheers
Imagine your surprise to find that I have in fact experienced a major accident/injury. It was very early in my career and thankfully its ripple effect brought 2 of the best mentors I have ever had into my life..The universe is weird like that, ain't it...

Do you honestly think that I have lasted this long by being "dangerous", and by putting both myself and those I work with in peril? Fucking please..

Not really sure why I am defending myself to someone who has ZERO comprehension of what my day to day tree-life looks like. Instead, please accept my friendly invitation to come out and spend a day wreaking a big Fir or Red...Earn while you learn... A paid vacation, if you will...An your fucked up assumptions concerning my job sites? Proven 180 degrees wrong.

IMG_2784.JPG
 
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