What % of Climbers do you think...

[speelyei]

I had an idea, or an impression, that Ive come to find is incorrect. I am curious to ask our community the same question and see how the good people of Treebuzz see the state of affairs.

What percentage of climbers working in the United States today would you imagine are still climbing on a closed-loop, single-snap Ddrt system?

 

[DSMc]

Not sure about the snap part, but the vast majority of tree climbers still climb on a doubled, moving-rope-system.

 

[CanadianStan]

I had an idea, or an impression, that Ive come to find is incorrect. I am curious to ask our community the same question and see how the good people of Treebuzz see the state of affairs.

What percentage of climbers working in the United States today would you imagine are still climbing on a closed-loop, single-snap Ddrt system?

I'm assuming 80%

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Most

 

[speelyei]

Not sure about the snap part, but the vast majority of tree climbers still climb on a doubled, moving-rope-system.

Yeah, but that encompasses zigzags, hitch climbers, etc.

Im talking about just a good old-fashioned knot on a snap, or maybe a carabiner, with a long tail that’s used to tie a Blake’s, taughtline, or some vague “customization” or approximation of a taughtline.

 

[JTree]

I'd guess over 70%

 

[Jonny]

or some vague “customization” or approximation of a taughtline.

Around here there’s probably more climbers using the midshipman’s hitch than taughtline. Just a taughtline minus one turn on top. Works well for them, I used to use it too before I learned Blake’s. Still eats the tail over time like taughtline, I think it tends a bit easier and doesn’t bind and need to be loosened as much.

 

[DSMc]

Most guys using snaps are also using 4 D harnesses. I can't put a number on it but there are lots that still do.

Curious as to why you are asking such a specific question.

 

[speelyei]

Curious as to why you are asking such a specific question.

Because I had assumed, incorrectly, that the average practitioner was benefiting from changes in tools and techniques that were well known in the late 90’s and early 2000’s.

In the last couple years, having gone to work as a full-time traveling “trainer”, I have met thousands (literally) of climbers on all three coasts, and the central states, the NW, New England, you get the idea.... and if someone had told me “Yeah, easily 70% of the people you’re going to encounter are going to be using the exact system you learned in 1991”, I would have thought you were nuts, or joking.

 

[DSMc]

Gotcha. It is easy to think that the things we read about here is the climbing norm. Sadly, not true.

 

[Jonny]

I think it’s good to know how to get down with just a piece of rope and be able to do it one handed if needed.
It’s old but reliable and useful and it’s still putting food on the table for a lot of working climbers out there, and it’s an inexpensive way for rec climbers to get into the sport with the purchase of just a rope and saddle.
I’m a total sucker for fancy new gadgets though. The evolution of this stuff is just rapid and it’s fascinating to me.
I’m happy I don’t have to fight the tree (or maybe I was fighting myself) isolating crotches with throw line anymore. Working from a base tie was a big deal for me.

My guesstimate for your question, here in western NY state, I guess 80%

 

[speelyei]

Oh, I didn’t base my impressions on internet forums. I realize now, I’ve been very lucky to have always had peers and mentors that were open to innovation.
And it’s odd... lumping and splitting people into categories, (or generalizing, to use an emotionally loaded word), I find that the great bulk of workers has a “give-a-shit” factor of about 3.... There is a smaller subset that sort of casually accepts and adopts new tools and techniques that are obvious improvements over the older way of doing things. I’m definitely in this group.
Then there is a much smaller group of highly active, intensely motivated people, who do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to pioneering.

Now, I’m not one to endorse every whiz-bang or new knot that comes down the pipe. A lot of innovations aren’t as creative or labor saving as they’re touted as being.

But some things are so obviously better, that I can’t believe someone would be resistant to the idea. For example, I’m happy as a clam on a Blake’s. But c’mon, cough up another connector and let me run a split-tail system!

 

[Jehinten]

I'd agree with 70-80% based on what I've seen locally. One climber that I recently worked alongside, he removed the tree and I came in later and cleaned it up, only used a linesman belt, a single lanyard and spurs. No rope system at all.

I gave him a hand for a while on the second tree in between chipping the first and found that his rigging rope was too short for the job and he did not know how to tie a knot that wouldn't untie itself mid-rig.

He actually laughed at me for getting out a throw line, stating that all they do is get tangled up until I set a rigging point and remote tied his limbs for him over the house with my rigging rope.

 

[speelyei]

I think it’s good to know how to get down with just a piece of rope and be able to do it one handed if needed.
It’s old but reliable and useful and it’s still putting food on the table for a lot of working climbers out there, and it’s an inexpensive way for rec climbers to get into the sport with the purchase of just a rope and saddle.

My guesstimate for your question, here in western NY state, I guess 80%

Yeah, don’t misinterpret what I’m saying, though.
Look, everyone should know how to make a makeshift saddle with a bowline on a bight and how to tie a friction hitch. The gadgets are not to replace ability and knowledge.

And I also understand (maybe better than most) that learning is a process, and everyone is at a different place in their journey. But, if you told me I’d be meeting climbers in 2019 that have ten and fifteen years in the industry and still climb on a closed system and only know four knots, (two of which are “debatable”) I’d have laughed. Not because I’m laughing at people or being arrogant, it’s because I thought the industry had moved farther forward for the average person climbing a tree.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I had this same conversation 25 years ago with one of my mentors. Same conclusions.

 

[JeffGu]

An old, worn out leather linesman belt, leather buckstrap and steel pole gaffs are common around here. I can count on one hand the number of actual climbing arborists in the area. You get into the bigger cities, Lincoln and Omaha especially, and it's a little better. Still, the vast majority around here are 100% machinery and no climbers at all. They're more likely to be wearing turtle fur coats than any form of PPE. They still think computers are "newfangled, techno bullshit" and can't figure out how to store a phone number in their cell phone, so they carry a list of numbers in their wallet.
If they see me in a tree, the first thing they ask is, "Couldn't you just use a big ladder?" and comment how they wouldn't trust a skinny rope like that to climb on. They think a Poulan from Home Depot is an expensive, high-dollar saw and have absolutely no idea that a chain can be sharpened. If it gets dull, they take it somewhere to be fixed (new chain, usually) and whine about the $40 bill.

Progress is like unicorns. There ain't no such animal in these here parts.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Over the years I've asked owners of the large supply companies about sales of harnesses, ropes and lanyards. The core parts of the system.

Arborplex is still popular
Saddles made with conveyor belt...4d butt strap...are still popular.
Lanyard...the rope version of the poleclimbers flat buckle buck strap...are still popular.

 

[evo]

Around here there’s probably more climbers using the midshipman’s hitch than taughtline. Just a taughtline minus one turn on top. Works well for them, I used to use it too before I learned Blake’s. Still eats the tail over time like taughtline, I think it tends a bit easier and doesn’t bind and need to be loosened as much.
View attachment 63461

That’s just a taught line...

 

[Alabama_Woodsman]

Haven't climbed in a couple years, and getting ready to get back in it for shits and giggles. Before I stopped I was beginning to play around with base tie SRT, but when it was time to put the wood on the ground and the food on the table, I was still climbing on a closed loop system and so was almost everyone I know in my area. It's just what I know and I'm comfortable with when it counts. That said, I know the suck of humping rope all too well, even with a hitch climber, or zig zag, and fully intend on getting with the times, this time. So glad to have found the wealth if knowledge that seems to exist here. I'm quite sure it will serve me well.

 

[SomethingWitty]

I met a kind of local (an hour drive) guy through social media and went and had a play date today. He had been introduced to the split tail previously and had never experienced an e2e system.
He has seen some modern gear at the climb store but not played with it.

Before I left, he cut a tail off of his shorter climb line and I gave him a climbing helmet, a carabinier for the split tail, and a brass snap on a little loop for a hitch tender.
Whatever the number of climbers on a closed system happens to be, I know that it is too high. This particular guy usually works around people who would have no way to get his rope back to him if he dropped it while trying to advance. The split tail is the single most important advancement in production tree work. Reach out. Encourage advancement. One climber and one step at a time is the only way that it will happen.

Edit: For the record, I was trying very hard to not be snooty. It requires doing. These climbers face the same risks that the more "with the times" climbers do. They're just a couple of years of education and practice away from where we are. It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be. There are very few competitive climbers who can't spare enough time and gear essentials to get another human really excited at least once a year.
He was one of the more receptive ones, but I've got a carabinier and four feet of rope even for the ones that are too cool to learn.