Mini skid steers tracks versus wheels

[frashdog]

Man I'm so glad I did not but a tracked skid steer.

Our Ram Rod 900t is down for the moment due to hydraulic motor failure...not bad it lasted over 10 years. $300 fix.

We rented a ditch witch diesel jobber for a week. Now I considered my self a decent operator...before I drove this beast. This thing just wants to tear lawns apart. It's like I'm actively preventing it as I operate it. Forget about feeding the chipper with it. That pivot maneuver in front of the chipper, I can do so smoothly with our wheeled jobber on lawns does not exist in the realm of tracked machines....not with out ground pro.

I can wheelie tail or nose depending on load with the wheeled unit and pivot on spot. Not happening with the tracks.

The controls are not for running a bmg either...constantly have to switch hands to work.

Now if you are digging...this machine is the money. Got tractive power? We moved some chip piles around in a manner not possible with our wheeled unit. And yes the lifting capacity is a bit more... Hope so on a machine that is almost two feet longer and 800lbs heavier.

If you work on lawns...wheels.
I'm sure there are some master operators out there..After 5 years, I'm clearly not one of them.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Ha, good post and information - thanks. I'm getting close to going for a wheeled unit. But there is always that little nagging doubt wondering if I'm missing something by not going tracks.

 

[ROYCE]

Tracks are the best. Once you learn how to use them you will never regret having them. You just have to be a wise operator. Do your turning in area's than can get beat up, or lay down plywood.
If you ever get off flat surface or lawns areas and get into woods, you will want the tracks.

 

[Lumberjack]

Then you could go with green tracks on a Terex TSL200/PT30. 48" wide with 11" tracks, 90" long, 33hp, and hardly any turf damage, even if you're turning circles on grass! Joystick controls, auxiliary controls are mounted on the joystick.


I should have some videos up soon, waiting on my BMG for it.

 

[frashdog]

That is awesome!
Was asv right?

 

[frashdog]

Tracks are the best. Once you learn how to use them you will never regret having them. You just have to be a wise operator. Do your turning in area's than can get beat up, or lay down plywood.
If you ever get off flat surface or lawns areas and get into woods, you will want the tracks.

You make a statement then don't give any reasons? Come on now! Makes me wonder if you work on lawns much...or have run a machine with wheels.

If you ever get in the woods and off lawns you are going to want a bigger machine...I bought my "mini" to get into back yards and move material across lawns.

The only thing tracks have over wheel IMO is tractive power...you don't need that when picking up things and running with them.

The only thing I've ever heard people whine about with the wheeled units is the bouncyness...that can be harnessed into productivity when you wheelie pivot and/or flick stuff.

We set up on lawns over 50% of the time. Like chipper on the lawn.
Many times we still put ground pro next to the chipper if ground it wet or grass is delicate.

Tree guy around me has a boxer with tracks. He is very happy not to have to drag and lift himself. He still has to go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth not to tear the shit out of a nice lawn. Local fence company has two tracked units...a vermeer and a ditch witch. They know better, they have lots of ground pro, like every turn/corner that has to be made.

I do not see the advantage of tracks on a lawn one bit...sorry.

 

[Pelorus]

No rocket science required doing a 360* pivot on a 4X8' piece of plywood with a tracked mini. (SK650) Most jobs we do (across lawns) require 12 sheets of ply or less. I sure wouldn't want to go back to doing things the way we used to in the pre-mini era.

 

[frashdog]

No rocket science required doing a 360* pivot on a 4X8' piece of plywood with a tracked mini. (SK650) Most jobs we do (across lawns) require 12 sheets of ply or less. I sure wouldn't want to go back to doing things the way we used to in the pre-mini era.

I'd take a tracked mini over no mini any day.

But after 5 years not needing ground pro on every lawn job...I can clearly see the difference.

 

[Pelorus]

I do not see the advantage of tracks on a lawn one bit...sorry.

I agree!
My SK650 is part rototiller, even with worn down aftermarket tracks.
Have never run a wheeled machine. Would love to own one- perhaps after inheriting a windfall from a deceased relative I didn't know I was related to.

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

I absolutely love my Thomas 25G (thanks Brandon) wheeled unit. I very seldom take matts to a job sight unless is been raining. Planning the job is key I normally try to set up where there is no grass, under a canopy or on side of a driveway. If the machine is dragging what does it know if it's ten extra feet. I love the wheelie trick, just gotta plan the load accordingly. I think you can do it with the tracks too though you just need more weight.
I when I was in the market is was die hard track, but when Brendon's came up for sale... I'm not looking back.

 

[climbhightree]

If you have a mini, there is no reason to setup the truck and chipper on the lawn....that is half the reason for having a mini. Keep the truck on the pavement, and away from the tree and ropes etc.

I carry 12 sheets of 3/8" plywood on my truck, and rarely pull it all out. The only times it all come out is if it is a really nice lawn, and a really fussy customer...and on a removal situation where I will be making a lot of trips back and forth (where even a lawn mower would damage the lawn).

If we do setup on a lawn, or stone driveway, we put 3 sheets side by side behind the chipper. This gives us a pivot point to feed the chipper without messing up the grass or the stones. Plus it helps in clean up...and helps to keep stones out of the chipper area.

Other than that the plywood is only used for hard turns, 360 spins, or to cover pavers. You keep your turn to a flowing arch, you won't be causing any damage...don't be rammy or jerky. Keep the load as low and tight to the machine as possible, this keeps the machine better balanced. A balanced machine flows better, and causes less ruts etc.

Tracks are also a plus in pulling trees over.

 

[climbhightree]

So your will drive a 14,000 gvw truck and a 6000lbs chipper on the lawn, but your worried about the mini destroying the grass.

My mini weighs in at around 2200 lbs, and has a ground pressure of around 3 psi.

To put thst in perspective, taken from wiki:

Human male (1.8 meter tall, medium build): 55 kPa (8 psi)

M1 Abrams tank: 103 kPa (15 psi)

1993 Toyota 4Runner / Hilux Surf: 170 kPa (25 psi)

Adult horse (550 kg, 1250 lb): 170 kPa (25 psi)

Bagger 288 Excavation machine: 170 kPa (25 psi)

Passenger car: 205 kPa (30 psi)

Wheeled ATV: 13.8 kPa (2 psi)

So grass damage really comes down to the turns on a tracked mini. You eliminate hard turns on the grass, you pretty much eliminate all damage...other then a washboard effect on soft ground due to the lugs.

I've never used a tired mini skid, but I can't see the steering is all that different from a full size skid. If your turning on a dime, even just a quarter turn or less, your going to damage the lawn.

 

[Lumberjack]

That is awesome!
Was asv right?

Yes, Terex bought ASV. Originally it was the RC30, then the PT30, which had some significant upgrades. The TSL200 is the same as the PT30, just different stickers for us Terex Environmental dealers.


The Thomas 25G was great on grass with tires, that was my first mini as well. One thing you have to remember is the Thomas is TINY compared to the large tracked machines. The Boxer 500 series could literally pick up a Thomas.

Tractive effort is nice carrying loads up hills; it's frustrating to have a machine that can't climb with a load. As mentioned, tracked machines normally have a decent advantage in tractive effort.

Tracks are generally better in soft terrain concerning not getting stuck, but they can still certainly sink.


One common misconception regarding tracks is illustrated in the above post. Just because some tracks are 60" long and 11" wide, does not mean the load is spread evenly over the pair's collective 1320 sq inches. For that to happen, the center of gravity would have to be centered over the smooth tracks as well as the bearing surface being both level and flat. With a loader, the COG moves from the rear of the machine (empty) to the front idler (tipping). Still, tracks do better in soft terrain as well as generally do spread the weight over a larger area than tires when the machine is at its rated capacity. When the tracked machine is on the front idlers (tipping forward), its contact patch is just the front idler.

 

[southsoundtree01]

When tipped on the front idlers, it's got a lot more ground pressure, but tears less turf. A half sheet of ply can be enough to spin on, with a heavy load. A half sheet with a good operator seems to work, when unloaded, just that it rotates under the balance point near the engine.

Traction is great when you can take the chipper to the brush, and leave chips.

 

[frashdog]

So your will drive a 14,000 gvw truck and a 6000lbs chipper on the lawn, but your worried about the mini destroying the grass.

My mini weighs in at around 2200 lbs, and has a ground pressure of around 3 psi.

To put thst in perspective, taken from wiki:

Human male (1.8 meter tall, medium build): 55 kPa (8 psi)

M1 Abrams tank: 103 kPa (15 psi)

1993 Toyota 4Runner / Hilux Surf: 170 kPa (25 psi)

Adult horse (550 kg, 1250 lb): 170 kPa (25 psi)

Bagger 288 Excavation machine: 170 kPa (25 psi)

Passenger car: 205 kPa (30 psi)

Wheeled ATV: 13.8 kPa (2 psi)

So grass damage really comes down to the turns on a tracked mini. You eliminate hard turns on the grass, you pretty much eliminate all damage...other then a washboard effect on soft ground due to the lugs.

I've never used a tired mini skid, but I can't see the steering is all that different from a full size skid. If your turning on a dime, even just a quarter turn or less, your going to damage the lawn.

Sorry you missed it...
Not about ground pressures. It's about skidding a track. When a wheeled unit is loaded and you skid it most weight is in one the front wheels, many times doing a "nose" wheelie...you have seen wheel chairs wheelie and pivot right. Un loaded wheeled mini and you can wheelie on the rears and rotate with no lawn damage. Can't do that with tracks.

Yes when the ground is hard enough we bring the equipment as close to the trees as possible. Often we can chip some where on site. We have sandy soils around here that allow use to drive trucks on some lawns. My chipper actually weighs over 9000lbs.

It's the turning that tears up the turf. Not just infront of the chipper.
Yea in front of the chipper is easy to protect. It's all the rest of the branches and logs that need to get grabbed and forwarded that require tight little turns random through out tight back yards.

Bottom line, my mini with wheels comes nowhere near the tracked unit I have for a week with respect to damaging lawns. Yes I can operated the tracked jobber with out damaging the lawn, but it requires back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, keeping both tracks moving the whole time. My wheeled mini has dance moves tracked units can't do.

 

[TimBr]

Then you could go with green tracks on a Terex TSL200/PT30. 48" wide with 11" tracks, 90" long, 33hp, and hardly any turf damage, even if you're turning circles on grass! Joystick controls, auxiliary controls are mounted on the joystick.


I should have some videos up soon, waiting on my BMG for it.

View attachment 32859
View attachment 32860

Bam! Right on time and on point with your post, Carl! You are one heck of a salesman! No wonder your business seems to be growing at an astonishing rate.

Nice job. I'm wondering what frashdog thinks of your post. I still need to read through the rest of the thread, so maybe he has already commented on it.

Tim

P.S. It appears frashdog did already render an opinion. In spite of Carl's photos, which may admittedly not show the full range of activity, it seems frashdog is really happy using wheels.

I completely get that. Not having to worry about every little move you make with a machine all day every day has got to be a liberating feeling. It sounds to me like wheels = low maintenance, with regard to lawn damage.

This is a really interesting thread; thanks to everyone involved.

 

[Lumberjack]

Thanks for the compliments.

I haven't seen a big/heavy lifting mini skid on tires. The Boxer 427w used to be a reasonablely heavy lifter.

I use a mini excavator for the majority of my (tree) material handling/loading. I only use a "loader" (wheel, tracked, or articulating) to get the material to the excavator. I'd rather have (just about) any sit down loader over a mini, with the exception of getting through a 3' gate.

 

[frashdog]

Yes, Terex bought ASV. Originally it was the RC30, then the PT30, which had some significant upgrades. The TSL200 is the same as the PT30, just different stickers for us Terex Environmental dealers.


The Thomas 25G was great on grass with tires, that was my first mini as well. One thing you have to remember is the Thomas is TINY compared to the large tracked machines. The Boxer 500 series could literally pick up a Thomas.

Tractive effort is nice carrying loads up hills; it's frustrating to have a machine that can't climb with a load. As mentioned, tracked machines normally have a decent advantage in tractive effort.

Tracks are generally better in soft terrain concerning not getting stuck, but they can still certainly sink.


One common misconception regarding tracks is illustrated in the above post. Just because some tracks are 60" long and 11" wide, does not mean the load is spread evenly over the pair's collective 1320 sq inches. For that to happen, the center of gravity would have to be centered over the smooth tracks as well as the bearing surface being both level and flat. With a loader, the COG moves from the rear of the machine (empty) to the front idler (tipping). Still, tracks do better in soft terrain as well as generally do spread the weight over a larger area than tires when the machine is at its rated capacity. When the tracked machine is on the front idlers (tipping forward), its contact patch is just the front idler.

I really do not think my wheeled mini is in the same class as tracked units. My unit weighs around 2000lbs with the bmg.

And yes about the tipping contact patch.

I have no debates about the wonders of these tracked units. Yesterday we did a job in the woods my wheeled unit would not have had a fun time. The tracked unit was impressive, at lifting, backing up steep hills and yes roto tilling the crap out of the ground.

I will probably never get rid of my ramrod due to the tight back yards and gates. In fact I probably will score another one due to our dependency and knowledge of working on the machine. It already picks and skids loads many many times bigger then humans are capable.

After renting a tracked mini for over a week, I definitely would not be interested in owning one. I am however very interested in a larger tracked unit, like 50-60hp asv style, for off road an yard/shop material handling. We have rented/borrowed 60-90hp units that are just too much for our needs.

Thanks for all the input. Everyone.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Great info.!

 

[Menchhofer]

Wheeled articulating machines are best for working on lawns. Tracks are always are harder on grass/lawn than a wheeled vehicle no matter how "careful" one is or how many wide turns are made back and forth. Why go to the trouble of putting down plywood all the time when not needed? Would not purchase a mini on tracks of any kind.