flyingsquirrel25
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- South East, PA
Agreed. But you have to start somewhere. Or we can just go on talking about what is wrong with our industry instead of making positive movement forward.
Women Arborist Injured at New York Botanical garden?
- Thread starter marlinspiker
- Start date
Agreed. But you have to start somewhere. Or we can just go on talking about what is wrong with our industry instead of making positive movement forward.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
I think we are seeing movement at the grassroots level. What can we ask of the organizations and regulators? What about better reporting of accidents and their investigation? More data collected to show just what the real issues are and what costs to the industry?
Ok so I've read the thread and of course I'm relieved to hear that Rachel is ok. I had a momentary panic actually because I have a Rachel working for me!
Anyway, this incident has highlighted something that I constantly think about.
Should we all be working off a base tied lowerable anchor? SRT and DdRT.
I've been working on a single line for nearly three years and only ever use a base tie for access to the top or work such as dead wood removal or crown lifting.
The reason I work off a top tie is because:
1. It reduces the bounce in the system.
2. One can have a higher TIP.
3. I don't like the idea of accidentally cutting the static side of my rope (ie during a crown clean or dismantle).
It does concern me though. Being rescued by a climber would be a very slow process.
A lowerable base tie would be obviously much faster.
Really, I'm just interested in how many people work off a base tie and what initiatives are used to ensure a good safety margin.
Thanks
Al.
Anyway, this incident has highlighted something that I constantly think about.
Should we all be working off a base tied lowerable anchor? SRT and DdRT.
I've been working on a single line for nearly three years and only ever use a base tie for access to the top or work such as dead wood removal or crown lifting.
The reason I work off a top tie is because:
1. It reduces the bounce in the system.
2. One can have a higher TIP.
3. I don't like the idea of accidentally cutting the static side of my rope (ie during a crown clean or dismantle).
It does concern me though. Being rescued by a climber would be a very slow process.
A lowerable base tie would be obviously much faster.
Really, I'm just interested in how many people work off a base tie and what initiatives are used to ensure a good safety margin.
Thanks
Al.
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
Rachel, first and foremost, thanks for sharing so that we all can be better climbers.
To error is human, I’m glad we are all human and we will make errors.
My comments, like everyone here, are critical of everything that occurred but it is not personal criticism of anyone involved. Out of every one of these reports I learned something and if I can remember and apply them I will be better for it and your experience could be what keeps me alive, THANK YOU. Get well.
You said, “work them both” and proceeded to mention a method of basically disengaging or minimizing the engagement of the RW. This may be something you are used to doing because of your light weight.
When using the RW a climber just needs to be sure it is engaged, it is not a control lever for applying friction. It is a self-metered, progressive provider of friction depending on the weight of the climber and friction of the hitch. It should not be “WORKED” and there should not be a need to work both the hitch and the RW at the same time.
SRT devices can put more of the control in the hands of the climber and thus perhaps more of the risk if not handled correctly. With that comes more efficiency and functionality.
One last comment from too many comments already. As in most emergencies, I believe step one should be……….do nothing………make it a short step sure but pause before you act.
Again, SO glad you are ok and so grateful that you would share and let others learn from our shared human experience.
To error is human, I’m glad we are all human and we will make errors.
My comments, like everyone here, are critical of everything that occurred but it is not personal criticism of anyone involved. Out of every one of these reports I learned something and if I can remember and apply them I will be better for it and your experience could be what keeps me alive, THANK YOU. Get well.
Is it possible that the line slipped from his hand and the blakes hitch simply followed the rope up until it contacted a limb or part of the tree, released and simply let your line run until it passed the hitch. (Even if it did not slip immediacy, it likely would not pass a branch or limb without releasing.) I can see it being difficult to cut your rope with one hand while holding the rescue line with the other. If the hitch stayed engaged for just a moment it would pull the rescue line into the tree where it was observed, leading to an observation that it “was connected”. I think you mentioned that your line was flaked on the ground next to you. Seeing the rescue line up the tree could lead someone to think it provided resistance and thus a “SHOCK LOAD”, when in fact it did very little.
The same should and can be said for DdRT.
” if I had simply”. It is not about fault and yes, perhaps and AB would have helped but a properly tied prusik would do the same thing. There are lots of ways to get the weight off so that a new knot, RIG or friction device can be installed. It is not that “simple” to just clip in and take the weight off of a base anchor, even at your light weight.
These comments concern me and anyone using the RW should understand this well. Now I not a “light weight” and I trust someone will correct me if I am wrong as there may be some motivations to do these techniques that I am not effected by.
You said, “work them both” and proceeded to mention a method of basically disengaging or minimizing the engagement of the RW. This may be something you are used to doing because of your light weight.
When using the RW a climber just needs to be sure it is engaged, it is not a control lever for applying friction. It is a self-metered, progressive provider of friction depending on the weight of the climber and friction of the hitch. It should not be “WORKED” and there should not be a need to work both the hitch and the RW at the same time.
A light weight climber can descend on a friction hitch without a RW, heavy weight climbers just tend to lock them up. This is why the friction for a limb anchor, DdRT and the friction from the RW works. The difference being that the limb is out of reach but the RW is not. As Kevin says, “it is the branch the goes with you”. Trying to control the RW is like trying to control or release the friction from the branch. Again, perhaps light weight climbers are in a habit of doing this but as we know, when we panic, we DO what we are in the habit of doing, without thought.
I realize that you made a panic and rapid descent but this comment makes me again wonder if it was not so much a problem with your hitch but that the RW was not properly being used thus not providing the share of the friction needed to keep your hitch from burning up. It would be like removing the branch from a typical blakes hitch setup and descending solely on the blakes hitch. That could easily melt thru the climb line or split tale and also burn your hand.
Perhaps it is not because of skinnier knots but because with a blakes hitch the friction provided by the branch or anchor is out of reach and is always being provided. Where with the RW technique, “work them both”, is being used and again in panic mode, I think this would be very difficult. Once again, I suspect that as a light weight climber you are able to descend on just a friction hitch where other heavier climbers and probably the mass number using the RW would simply lock the hitch and not descend.
I do hate to speculate but it is part of learning here and not and indictment of blame or fault. The speculation may not apply to this case but it may to another.
SRT devices can put more of the control in the hands of the climber and thus perhaps more of the risk if not handled correctly. With that comes more efficiency and functionality.
Using that splice eye with hardware may be something to consider although I suspect you will have a recue device for all future climbs.
Very good points and excellent questions. I have experience in knowing that SO OFTEN, witness reports are unreliable and effected by conscience and memory. I have a very difficult time thinking of the rescue line going up and over the anchor and/or clearing from the tree as you mentioned you looked up and there was no line in the tree.
I know what is being said here, just remember, like in DdRT, BOTH are load bearing legs.
Again, being a lighter climber is not my problem, (wish I could have a little of it though) but I suspect that this is an issue that could and should be addressed in the use of SRT tools and techniques.
THIS IS SO WELL SAID! I would say this for DdRT, SRT as well, there ARE so many BETTER ways to do it and the SPEED is not worth the risk PERIOD! If anyone is going to cut my climbing line I better be dead and they just don’t want to take the time to lower my lifeless coupes the ground.
One last comment from too many comments already. As in most emergencies, I believe step one should be……….do nothing………make it a short step sure but pause before you act.
Again, SO glad you are ok and so grateful that you would share and let others learn from our shared human experience.
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I do minimal work on the way up and only what is at hand. No base ties for the rest of the work. most of what i do is hazard prune/crown reduction and cleaning. The way I look at a base tie is that if I can't see it, I can't get comfortable, I can't focus and I get distracted. So I avoid it. Plus what i have found is it is always faster and easier to get as high as possible and descend to the work. Ascending to the work/tips most times is fight against limb and gravity. gravity is my friend.
In terms of rescue I haven't much to share other than be prepared and what works for me is to try to visualize a few steps ahead and stay calm. Many scenarios to get messed up as there are ways to get rescued. Best is not get messed up.
I walked head 1st into paper nest this yr and got hit pretty hard.
Last yr they got me in the head paper wasp
One yr in the tree by some sort of giant borer wasp my forehead swelled out to meet my nose. weird
Stay calm, breath, plan, and than act. Its painful, I ahte pain and try my best to avoid it. Instinct is to run, just remember what is going to hurt more? The wall? The ground? The Limb or the bees? Act accordingly.
Aside from that if Rachel had been the daughter, grand daughter etc of someone in the specific office of government that deals with red sealing a trade.
I betcha it would be done in a flash. Mandatory end of story, full on apprenticeship hand in hand step for step safely.
Its a shame are colleges, training institutes, associations keep rolling along like people are not dieing needlessly. You would think that they woudl want the trade elevated to that level.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
I had a parent this yr approach me say his 14yr old son is an arborist and can do the work. Crazy.
Roofers, landscapers anyone can say I can do that. I was one of those guys at one time, sure I can top out that Poplar. Could of cost me my life, lucky it was only a few fractured ribs.
Love my vocation hate the industry is my rant.
New tree biz here call Under cutters. will beat any price by 10% this is the problem some guy with a bit of training working for people looking for the cheapest price willing to take a chance that his employees won't get hurt on the job, property won't get damaged, taxes aren't being paid etc.
its fucked
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
There is always push back in any industry as it grows and matures. It's that not only at the top but at the rank and file level there is an attitude that accidents and deaths are at an acceptable number.
While I was at a local contractor tool store there was a company demonstrating fall arrest harnesses. He was telling me that OSHA is going after roofers in NJ. Could we be next? If so, it would be high time.
While I was at a local contractor tool store there was a company demonstrating fall arrest harnesses. He was telling me that OSHA is going after roofers in NJ. Could we be next? If so, it would be high time.
We frequently revisit the topic of bees in trees in safety meetings. Maybe it could stick in all our minds because it rhymes so well:
Bees in Trees. Having had several close calls and multiple stings myself, my alarm bells go off when*ever* I see any small ufo near the work site. It should be common sense training to take a moment and try to watch for bee traffic, and try to locate a common
point of arrival/departure. Most people cannot tolerate a bee attack without having an immediate, instinctual panic reaction and is a recipe for disaster.
Please people, make bee traffic a frequent topic in your tree worker safety training.
"Bees in Trees"
.
Bees in Trees. Having had several close calls and multiple stings myself, my alarm bells go off when*ever* I see any small ufo near the work site. It should be common sense training to take a moment and try to watch for bee traffic, and try to locate a common
point of arrival/departure. Most people cannot tolerate a bee attack without having an immediate, instinctual panic reaction and is a recipe for disaster.
Please people, make bee traffic a frequent topic in your tree worker safety training.
"Bees in Trees"
.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
And know whether or not you are allergic to any of them. If so, be sure your crew is well aware of it and equipped to deal with the situation. Carry an epi-pen or whatever you need to counter a reaction.
In the immutable prose of Douglas Adams…..
And carrying a towel wouldn't hurt either….
In the immutable prose of Douglas Adams…..
And carrying a towel wouldn't hurt either….
R4chel
New member
Hey TC,
Yes from the way it was explained to me that was how he set it up. There was another person there, a gardener that had no clue what was happening that he instructed to hold the rope tightly as he cut my line. The rope then rolled up the tree an unknown amount of feet and he said he gave it between 5-8ft of slack, he said the next thing he knew he saw me laying on the ground with the my climbing line.
monkeylove
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Roslyn, Pa.
How is your rehab going Rachel. Are in the trees yet or do you still have a little time to go before that.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Nice to have you back R4chel! Hope your recovery is going well. Give us an update on your progress, please.
R4chel
New member
Hey there,
I just started physical therapy last week, they say I'm moving really well for having a spinal fusion and have given me tons of excersises to strengthen my core to prevent injuring my back.
They had to look up what an Arborist/Tree Climber was since they had never heard of it before. They have sculpted the workouts to the profession.
Between that and doing yoga everyday, I can now touch my toes! Which they said I might never be able to do, so I'm feeling good.
The Neurosurgeons say unofficially I'll be back to work by May, so keep your fingers crossed. I miss the trees, the smell of the chainsaw, and pulling of my shoes at the end of the day to find all sorts of natures treats.
All things in due time.
- Location
- Chardon, OH
Rachel,
I'm very glad to hear of your progress.
I was a judge at the 2014 NE TCC WC. So we've met briefly.
I've had a few medical speed bumps of my own in the last several years, but mine were just "old age".
Keep up the spirit & drive. Don't over do, but be consistent.
I'm very glad to hear of your progress.
I was a judge at the 2014 NE TCC WC. So we've met briefly.
I've had a few medical speed bumps of my own in the last several years, but mine were just "old age".
Keep up the spirit & drive. Don't over do, but be consistent.
monkeylove
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Roslyn, Pa.
Great to Hear Rachel, good luck and keep proving them wrong. You will be back in the canopy in no time.
That is really great news!
macswan
Been here a while
- Location
- Champlain Valley, VT
Awesome news Rachel, saw your article a little while ago in TCIA. It was good, I really like that you have tried to make a teaching moment out of your fall. For what it's worth I have tried to as well. Thank you for putting so much info about it out there.
JontreeHI
Branched out member
- Location
- West Michigan lakeshore
X2 Mac, used this to ramp up our safety program a bit, including aerial rescue. Glad to hear you're improving Rachel.
- Location
- Pittsburgh PA
Just saw on Pittsburgh local news channel 4 that a man fell from a bucket truck trimming trees for Davey and was killed at the seen. Not exactly sure how but couldn't of been wearing a safety belt or it failed? Second death in the area involving a bucket truck. So sad, god be with his loved ones and be safe out there!
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
How about posting that on a new thread so we can follow it. So sorry to hear this!
New threads New posts
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Light 14 or 16" narrow kerf bar for 200t or 201t- Started by southsoundtree
- Replies: 9
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