Which grapple saw crane?

[Hawk910]

Palfinger 65002, Copma 650, or PM 65? Is there any one of these that would be better than the other? I know there are some sales guys in here, and I know y’all think the brand that you sell is the best. I don’t mind y’all chiming in but I’d really like to here from guys who have owned these models. Good, bad, and ugly. I’m looking to purchase one this year and trying to get as much info as possible. Thanks in advance.

 

[Steve Connally]

I can only speak for Palfinger. The boom has been trouble free for almost 2 years. Biggest thing was some hydraulic hoses weeping and the circuit board for the auto lube system(warranty) So as far as the boom goes I can't say enough about palfinger. Just remember the old saying, you get what you pay for and Palfinger is expensive.

 

[CanaryBoss]

Pm makes a good crane. I am also happy with my Fassi. Service is important. Location is important and possibly most importantly, are tree type and topography. Where are you? What kind of trees? What kind of properties do you deal with? Some states have road restrictions that should be seriously considered. Most of these trucks are illegal from day one one weight wise. DOT will catch on eventually. You don’t want to get a ticket every time you pull out.

 

[Hawk910]

Pm makes a good crane. I am also happy with my Fassi. Service is important. Location is important and possibly most importantly, are tree type and topography. Where are you? What kind of trees? What kind of properties do you deal with? Some states have road restrictions that should be seriously considered. Most of these trucks are illegal from day one one weight wise. DOT will catch on eventually. You don’t want to get a ticket every time you pull out.

I’m in MS. Pine, oak, sweet gum, are our 3 main trees that we do removals on. I’d say 80’-100’ is normal with the occasional 120 footer. I live in a somewhat rural area and normally have a good bit of space to work with, but we do service a couple of areas where space is more limited.

 

[Lumberjack]

Treehuggers, right?

I’m in Columbus and bought a PK40 back in 2017. It’s in Indianapolis now, but Palfinger or Effer would be my top picks.

 

[Hawk910]

Treehuggers, right?

I’m in Columbus and bought a PK40 back in 2017. It’s in Indianapolis now, but Palfinger or Effer would be my top picks.

Yes sir. I've read through some of your older posts. Did the grapplesaw not work out good for you?

 

[Lumberjack]

It’s a mixed bag.

It works well, but it’s not great on large pines/excurrent trees.

Being in a relatively rural, relatively poor part of the country means covering a very large area to keep it busy. The worst part of covering a larger area is the time spent giving single bids all over that may or may not turn into work, and even if it turns into a work, you have 4 hours of drive time between the bid and driving the equipment to and from the job.

I was well positioned financially with the crane, then an opportunity came for me to lease the crane out for substantially more than I had in the crane, which made the decision easy... I think those days are mostly gone now, however.

Something else I just considered while typing that, if you buy a PK65 and keep it busy doing removals with cleanup, you’ll be very unhappy using dump trailers.

 

[CanaryBoss]

Treehuggers, right?

I’m in Columbus and bought a PK40 back in 2017. It’s in Indianapolis now, but Palfinger or Effer would be my top picks.

Effer got bought out. Their small cranes are being phased out by hiab. Sounds like a parts nightmare

 

[CanaryBoss]

I would not get anything less than the size range your looking in unless it’s on tracks. Those pines will kick your butt unless you are right on them. Even then it is hard. Pines are the worst

 

[Lumberjack]

Pines suck to me because the limbs can't be flush cut which leaves stubs almost everywhere a limb was removed. Then you have to get the trunk down, which can mean double cutting with a 280 even 60' up. Pick capacity wasn't a major issue with my PK40 on pines, although the SG280 is very heavy on a PK40 beyond a 70' radius or so.

 

[Hawk910]

It’s a mixed bag.

It works well, but it’s not great on large pines/excurrent trees.

Being in a relatively rural, relatively poor part of the country means covering a very large area to keep it busy. The worst part of covering a larger area is the time spent giving single bids all over that may or may not turn into work, and even if it turns into a work, you have 4 hours of drive time between the bid and driving the equipment to and from the job.

I was well positioned financially with the crane, then an opportunity came for me to lease the crane out for substantially more than I had in the crane, which made the decision easy... I think those days are mostly gone now, however.

Something else I just considered while typing that, if you buy a PK65 and keep it busy doing removals with cleanup, you’ll be very unhappy using dump trailers.

Thanks for the advice. You are correct about the drive time of giving bids/transporting equipment and crew in rural areas. That has always been a challenge for me. I'm headed out the door right now, but would like to continue this conversation later this afternoon.

 

[Lumberjack]

Given the median income in Mississippi, on a new PK65, you'll need the equivalent of ~3 households' income worth of profit before you start making any money with the crane.

 

[CanaryBoss]

Thanks for the advice. You are correct about the drive time of giving bids/transporting equipment and crew in rural areas. That has always been a challenge for me. I'm headed out the door right now, but would like to continue this conversation later this afternoon.

I live in the largest city area wise in America. It’s definitely something you have to contend with in your business plan. But, believe me, it is not insurmountable.

 

[Lumberjack]

The town he lives in is the 23,657th largest city in the US, my town and the main town between us are around the 1740th. Don't forget to factor in Mississippi median household income is roughly 1/3 less than the US average.


Few (rural), poor (disposable income), and $500k+ truck is a hard thing to pencil whip. Also buying a Treemek without a grapple truck or other major (class A) means of hauling debris is a recipe for disaster. I could cut for a day with my treemek and spend a couple days hauling with my grapple truck (76 yards) assuming a short haul. Have an hour drive each way to dump and things get ugly. I nearly bought a used PK40 from a guy who made excuses as to why he was selling it, but the real reason was he had a 12" chipper and a dump trailer to move debris. He was way ass over tea kettle.

Luckily he broke his word and sold the truck to someone else who backed out of their new truck from Palfleet. I bought the new crane from Palfleet and was considerably happier than the guy that bought the used PK40. I found out after it all went down that the PK40 I bought was supposed to be for the dude that bought the used PK40 when he called trying to figure out issues with the crane and why the dealer (not Palfleet) wouldn't help him in the slightest.

 

[CanaryBoss]

So true on the hauling aspect! I appreciate your truthfulness in the matter. Most people don’t have the backbone to say something didn’t work for them. Too much pride. The Mecanil platform works well for us but we were running 5 crews and 15k a day when we got ours. Soo‍Idk

 

[Lumberjack]

It worked for me, I had a grapple truck. The guy it didn’t work for lives down in FL, near AL.

I leased mine out because it made the most sense in terms of still making profit each month and cutting my drive time down to be around my daughter more (who turned 3 today). The profit also gave me a paid for mulligan on buying a prebuilt, poorly laid out truck in terms of axles/loading/turning. When I started working on the mek lease deal I was keeping my grapple truck, but then the hurricanes hit and someone wanted the g truck considerably more than I wanted it two years prior, so I cashed in and took 7 months off.

The $140k tractor And attachments I bought 3 months before the crane assuredly didn’t work out. Sold it three years later with all of 61 hours on it.

 

[Hawk910]

Yes, lumberjack and my markets are probably considerably different than yours, Canary. The amount of customers we have in a 40 mile radius is probably equal to the amount of customers you have in a 10 mile radius. Plus Lumberjack is correct on the median income here being pretty low. A typical $4000 job for you will be more like a $1800-$2000 job here. A $500K investment is certainly a big risk anywhere, but that risk is magnified in this market. Here's a couple of my thoughts on why I'm considering purchasing one...

1). I currently have a crew that is self sufficient. From initial sales to completion. In the spring and summer months I have enough work to keep 2 crews busy but the issue I have run into in the past is keeping quality employees and decent equipment. When I tried a second crew in the past I bought some heavily used (cheap) equipment and I spent more time and money keeping the equipment going than I did working it. Then there is the issue of winter slow down months and not being able to keep 2 crews busy. My thought process is to let my main crew continue as usual and I will take the grapple saw out either by myself or with one other guy about 3 days a week.

2). My thought is it will help do more storm jobs when they come through. I don't chase storms very far but we do have a few tornados each year in our area.

3). I might sub out to other tree services. Not completely decided on this yet.

4). I'm getting a little bit burned out on regular tree work and looking for something to spice back up.

5). Let's be honest...It's a really cool remote control toy that I really, really want.

Now I know that I've got to take #4 and #5 and put them out of the decision making process. If it's not a good business decision then it won't be long before the newness wears off and I'm stuck with a $500K toy that's costing me more than it's making.


Y'all are correct on the debris removal issue. That is still going to be the bottleneck. Currently I run dump trailers and bobcat to load them. I know that loading a debris trailer with the grapple saw is not ideal, but it would allow me to be able to do some jobs with only one rig (grapple saw truck pulling debris trailer). Pairing it with a chipper and chip truck or grapple debris truck would be more efficient, but also much more expensive as I have neither of those currently. These are just a few of my thoughts. Please feel free to pick them apart and point out anything you see that I should reconsider.

 

[allmark]

Effer got bought out. Their small cranes are being phased out by hiab. Sounds like a parts nightmare

ALtec is the North American Distributor for Effer Cranes. The smaller cranes will not be phased out here. I was recently at Effer facility in Italy and their parts department has changed and is much more customer oriented. Altec is also increasing their Effer parts here. I would not be concerned with this.

 

[CanaryBoss]

ALtec is the North American Distributor for Effer Cranes. The smaller cranes will not be phased out here. I was recently at Effer facility in Italy and their parts department has changed and is much more customer oriented. Altec is also increasing their Effer parts here. I would not be concerned with this.

That sounds relieving. I know their cranes are quality for sure. I should be careful speaking on the matter I suppose. I’m just repeating what I heard.

 

[Gus_B]

I can't speak for the USA but In Canada it's HIAB - Palfinger.
Whatever you buy, purchase it from a reputable company as close to your company as possible.
Don't purchase something from a company too far away to not be able to stand in your salesmans door and service department when something goes wrong. These are complicated pieces of equipment and eventually regardless of brand you will need service. Make sure the company you buy it from is close enough and has the resources to get you up and running quickly. Before buying anything look at their crane inventory on the ground, the parts department and ask them what their parts fill rate is.
Also see how many service techs they have (not installation techs).
You're going to spend a big chunk of money so make sure you buy from a company that is close enough and knowledgeable to get you up and running as quick as possible when you need them.