Reach
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Atglen, PA
Problem is, cost of living in that area is so high, you can’t live on $60k a year. And they have probably outlawed house trailers too, because it’s California.
Where have all the climbers gone?
- Thread starter Anonymity
- Start date
Anonymity
Participating member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Ya for sure, very true…can’t compare wages in different parts of the world. I lived in London England for 1 year…typical cost of living was crazy…so I lived with a few people from NZ, South Africa and Australia all in one flat (saved some $that way).
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The government is going to take about 40% of that right off the batt which is what really kills you, you can definitely live on 64k a year especially if you're single and willing to have housemates.
deevo
Been here a while
- Location
- Horseshoe Valley, Ontario, Canada
We do large crane removals each and every day, most trees we do would take other companies more then a day to do manually climbing or rigging, moving and processing the debris, and we are usually done by 2. I’ve been doing tree work for 30 years now, I’ve seen first hand what working inefficiently does to people. Breaks them down
VenasNursery
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Michigan
Mentally and physically
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
It truly is wild times. Hearing how many climbers mention things like, "by the way, I am also a machinist" or mechanic, carpenter, engineer, equipment operators, etc. yet proving how highly skilled the respected workers in our field are... and the ever-present ability to choose less-risky/physical work for equal pay.
Someone said "the measure of how stressful a job is, depends on how many decisions one needs to make every day." Compare to a bank teller, factory worker or laborer who rarely has a crucial choice to make, and simply asks a superior when they get confused.. to our days all the way from choosing a T.i.P to material handling, there is hardly ever a truly "routine" moment. And the choices usually have at least 2-4 distinct options with endless variations...
Add to that the scraping, the moments of adrenaline when something slips or gives. It's a part of the show I appreciate, I exercise my mental health to live with this awareness of moment and reality. Yet where: I'll pay a mechanic or plumber to do in 1 hour what I could maybe do in 5 after buying a special tool.
When somebody hires a climber, it's something they wouldn't do in a hundred years.
The dark side of the whole conversation is that there is no end in sight for the decline of monetary values of America. The petrol standard of the "dollar" (federal reserve note) is going away right now, these are huge shifts. I interact with some clients who can't accept why $25/hour is totally lowball when I come in with all my own tools and insurance. It could be a decent rate not all that long ago. The inflation we see can make our pricing look outrageous.
Two years of staying home and saving lives has taken the juice out of life and achievement for huge swaths of the population. I doubt they will ever have the gumption to approach tree work. It's a trend that's been growing, and the approach of low-key communist systems is a nail in the coffin. Folks are digging in.
The bright lining is meeting a good number of young men who are skilled, welders, mechanics, dig tree work, ready and engaged in learning ropes; and accept that the old world is dying. Mainly they are committed to building some corollary lifestyle where they don't have to engage with money too much though. They aren't really looking for jobs with benefits. They are looking for pieces of land to build a cabin and grow a small garden.
Someone said "the measure of how stressful a job is, depends on how many decisions one needs to make every day." Compare to a bank teller, factory worker or laborer who rarely has a crucial choice to make, and simply asks a superior when they get confused.. to our days all the way from choosing a T.i.P to material handling, there is hardly ever a truly "routine" moment. And the choices usually have at least 2-4 distinct options with endless variations...
Add to that the scraping, the moments of adrenaline when something slips or gives. It's a part of the show I appreciate, I exercise my mental health to live with this awareness of moment and reality. Yet where: I'll pay a mechanic or plumber to do in 1 hour what I could maybe do in 5 after buying a special tool.
When somebody hires a climber, it's something they wouldn't do in a hundred years.
The dark side of the whole conversation is that there is no end in sight for the decline of monetary values of America. The petrol standard of the "dollar" (federal reserve note) is going away right now, these are huge shifts. I interact with some clients who can't accept why $25/hour is totally lowball when I come in with all my own tools and insurance. It could be a decent rate not all that long ago. The inflation we see can make our pricing look outrageous.
Two years of staying home and saving lives has taken the juice out of life and achievement for huge swaths of the population. I doubt they will ever have the gumption to approach tree work. It's a trend that's been growing, and the approach of low-key communist systems is a nail in the coffin. Folks are digging in.
The bright lining is meeting a good number of young men who are skilled, welders, mechanics, dig tree work, ready and engaged in learning ropes; and accept that the old world is dying. Mainly they are committed to building some corollary lifestyle where they don't have to engage with money too much though. They aren't really looking for jobs with benefits. They are looking for pieces of land to build a cabin and grow a small garden.
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
Rhode Island example:
1980 skilled craftsman rates: $15/hr all day
Decent choice of home in the Area: $60,000
Cost of Home: 4000 hours
2022 skilled craftsman rates: fight for $50/hr
"Affordable" Home in Area: $450,000
Cost of Home: 9000 hours.
1980 skilled craftsman rates: $15/hr all day
Decent choice of home in the Area: $60,000
Cost of Home: 4000 hours
2022 skilled craftsman rates: fight for $50/hr
"Affordable" Home in Area: $450,000
Cost of Home: 9000 hours.
I am not judging or being antagonistic, just trying to present the other side of this view point.
Heavy metal most definitely allows for increased speed and
production. It is not hard to grasp how much more can be done without even breaking into a sweat with the extraordinary power of machines. But speed is not the only measure of efficiency
What is less obvious is how many more people you 'bring to a tree job' with that Heavy metal. What I am referring to is the manufacturing and maintenance personnel and operating costs
needed for acquisition and continued use of each piece of equipment. They may not physically be on each site, but are part of the equation nonetheless. Thinking globally.
There is a cost in everything we do. Shifting who pays for it does not change that fact.
I think you have really hit on an underlying point. I get the making it easier and saving yourself mentally and physically aspect of this conversation. But from a business perspective doing more work and generating bigger revenue numbers doesnt equate to more profit. We must look at what is the cost to produce 1 unit of product or $1 dollar of profit. 2nd point, when things tighten up economically high dollar equipment still needs to be payed for. Big equipment has its place, but IMO the skilled individual is where the hay is spun into gold.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
$25/ hour is less the you should make as an employee being provided workers' comp and ss.
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
absolutely. I don't work for that rate. Yet I am finding that some out there are still thinking that this is a range of pay a working man can do, and above that it's like asking for gravy on top. The kicker is, they do find some guys who work for that, no offense but usually guys who will accept that as long as the one hiring looks aside from drink and drugs on the job.
I wish I had more positive side to bring to this conversation.
There is a lot of promise in Worker-cooperatives, but I have found a lot of guys overwhelmed and resistant to actually getting involved with business. Things change though and I would love to work together in this way.
My Dad pointed out that it's a tough thing being a solo contractor, I don't have a lot of camaraderie or venue to discuss/vent/ laugh about what's going on. I have some good connections with crews I work with but it's not as deep as the day-in, day-out, element of a true crew. I would love to get that again. I have a ways to go before I am generating enough work to get someone to commit time, the guys I like are keeping their full-time stuff going and helping on odd days and weekends.
I am offering $25/hr for ground work without experience, and training them.
The amount of decisions and things you have to keep track of as a climber is huge, we've got a new guy working with us who's learning to climb after retiring from a job with a commercial door installation company and rough trucking among other things and every time he climbs it's one of the things he talks about.
25 is cheap for a climber in my opinion even without them having to provide insurance, we had a guy here who was trying to hire groundsmen at 18$ an hour and wanted them to come with their own saws and at least some training which is absurd to me here Chick-fil-A or In'n out both start at 18.50 with benefits and don't require you to bring a couple grand in equipment or wear out your body.
deevo
Been here a while
- Location
- Horseshoe Valley, Ontario, Canada
I do 80% insurance/commercial work. 20% residential and not taking on any new customers, so I’m not worried about the economy tightening up, most of my equipment is paid for already. I have the luxury of both big equipment & very skilled individuals working for me. I get your points though.
You have a well developed niche business. This works well for you. I am speaking in general terms. My most profitable pieces of equipment after costs, time and money, is my pole pruner and hand saw. My business consists of 1/3 small pruning, 1/3 large pruning 1/3 removals of that 1/3 removals 1/2 are large. 1/2 of that large removal category is crane removal. There is no right or wrong just really zeroing in on where the money is. From my observation of 30+ years I think most companies are in my market but some think or want to be in your niche market. For the most part removals are a race to the bottom, insurance work being the exception. We both know your sucsess in this limited market took years to develop and isnt for the majority of tree services. Really good conversation as it brings into light how varied our industry is and the different approaches.
Stumpsprouts
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Asheville
Thanks. I was waiting for someone to do a comparison like this. I think this says it all.
Lately I’ve been considering changing careers because it just doesn’t pay what it should for the hazards and mental energy involved. It’s a very, very expensive job.
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
Was talking about this with my in-laws, to get a broad sense of the real scene around here. During the 80s, some guys were getting $25/hr here installing vinyl siding, when a families week of groceries cost 80 bucks.
This stuff goes way deeper than tree work though. I hopped industries to go back into high-end carpentry, custom sailboats, later into concrete work, the wages don't get any better, the risks just change. (dust and chemical poisoning rather than cuts and impacts) At least around here, running your own small business is the only equation that makes any sense, if one is raising a family.
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
a trend I am seeing is that there's a decent ability to finance lift machines, bucket trucks, etc. and tree guys get into this as they have the chance to consistently do the work in light of shortage of new guys available.
then the machines need to earn their time and payment, making less demand for climbers again.
In itself it's alright the lifts are here, but the pruning approach can be so different from looking at the tree growing from the trunk outward. If I were new to pruning, approaching that way, I would have a hard time visualizing cut placement and tree form.
I am beginning to recognize the difference of jobs I do that are bid by a climber, versus bid by a lift operator only. It's a different mentality of what can be done.
We have been trying to train one young climber, and I have an assessment. In our modern times of on-call information, it's changing memory recollection. We show him how to install rope wrench, tie a hitch, etc. But he won't remember it just a moment later. I don't know if this is a reflection of google and "why memorize information". that's just a guess from me.
Days of learning to tie knots with eyes closed will come back in style though. My sons sincerely find value in learning knots, and take time to repeat them.
Hopefully we are just seeing a dry spell, not a drought.
then the machines need to earn their time and payment, making less demand for climbers again.
In itself it's alright the lifts are here, but the pruning approach can be so different from looking at the tree growing from the trunk outward. If I were new to pruning, approaching that way, I would have a hard time visualizing cut placement and tree form.
I am beginning to recognize the difference of jobs I do that are bid by a climber, versus bid by a lift operator only. It's a different mentality of what can be done.
We have been trying to train one young climber, and I have an assessment. In our modern times of on-call information, it's changing memory recollection. We show him how to install rope wrench, tie a hitch, etc. But he won't remember it just a moment later. I don't know if this is a reflection of google and "why memorize information". that's just a guess from me.
Days of learning to tie knots with eyes closed will come back in style though. My sons sincerely find value in learning knots, and take time to repeat them.
Hopefully we are just seeing a dry spell, not a drought.
deevo
Been here a while
- Location
- Horseshoe Valley, Ontario, Canada
Oh no I know you aren’t, i was just pointing out what works for me, and I’ve never advertised for climbers or employees in over 20 years, the guys I have are all awesome and know how to get things done safely and efficiently and are treated well. some how keep on showing back up every day
I try and reward them with anything they need to get the jobs done efficiently. I have gone through a few duds and plugs over the years but now everyone knows my expectations. I’ve helped out numerous companies around me to try and get them to be more efficient, I have no problem helping anyone out to get them to the next level. @Anonymity I’ve helped and given advice to as well, I think he likes his Avant a little bit
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Jehinten
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Evansville
I've gotten to where I won't do large removals without a crane anymore. Not because we can't, but the crane reduces such a workload and time. My next step to reduce labor is a grapple truck (I currently use a mini skid to load wood) the larger capacity grapple and debris box will cut down on both time and labor as well.
Anonymity
Participating member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Oh no I know you aren’t, i was just pointing out what works for me, and I’ve never advertised for climbers or employees in over 20 years, the guys I have are all awesome and know how to get things done safely and efficiently and are treated well. some how keep on showing back up every day
You bet! Love my Avant,..to whoever wants to listen…there’s a few guys on here that have so much to offer as far as knowledge and experience in this industry, like deevo (much more than myself). So thankful for their assistance! And still can’t figure out why they spend the time helping out a little fish like me lol. But, if you’re new in the industry…listen to the pros! It will certainly help, might even help you live longer literally!
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Light 14 or 16" narrow kerf bar for 200t or 201t- Started by southsoundtree
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