Where have all the climbers gone?

T
Vicente said:
35 an hour doesn't seem so that high for a good climber, mountain Enterprises here pays 65 for their good climbers or so I hear full benefits paid vacation and retirement. If your starting out it's pretty good though.
I do agree with whoever made the statement about guys (business's) working at to low of rates and driving the price down to far, I got underbid by close to 50% on a removal it was about a 100-120ft dead pine 30 ft off the road downhill that had to be dumped I told the guy I could do it for 1100, you can't give pine away here and the only dump that will take it is 45 minutes away.
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The utility pay has gone up and guys are doing much better if you look up the 1245 labor agreement foremen with cdl is 40$ or so an hr with an additional 9 or so an hr pension/401 plan.
 
This has turned into such a great thread! Some very good, honest, from the heart thoughts here. This is so very relevant to me in my life right now, and it’s nudging me more and more into what my gut has been telling me for awhile, and I’ve been resistant to it. Thankyou Treebuzzers, I love you all!!
 
Reach said:
Problem is, cost of living in that area is so high, you can’t live on $60k a year. And they have probably outlawed house trailers too, because it’s California.
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Reach is incredibly correct 60k isn’t shit over here. There are good municipal careers in my area along with the recently new contracts the boys are getting working utility in my experience there like most guys working in the Bay Area they either have a shoebox they rent or inherited or are hardcore commuters (even the top paying municipal not break your back amazing pension/retirement plan isn’t enough to sustain a comfortable living) we keep getting pushed further and further from the work which is why Personally were packing up and leaving it’s sad to see we can’t have what past generations and our parents have got but whatever that’s the reality not the end of the world. And lol there’s plenty of outlaw trailers out here and wonderful mobile community’s as well don’t get it twisted @Reach (said with love)
 
It’s definitely crazy out there. I’m not an employer, but a lot of us on the employee/production crew feel the pressure. At least me and my teammates do right now.

We just lost our 3 top climbers very suddenly to other companies offering better pay. One of which was my mentor for climbing so I feel a bit lost with more to learn; we had a great thing going. So frustrating on our end when management doesn’t counter with the same or higher pay to keep them. To not see them think long term is mind boggling. We will never replace those three guys, and it was the same story a few years ago with two different climbers. But the current situation feels more dire with no more of the career climbers that have been doing it 15++ years. We Currently have Two bucket trucks and one CDL driver who is also leaving in 3 months to move south. They let another CDL driver/great climber slip between their fingers just about a year ago. We will have no one to drive the bucket trucks to the job sites in a few months.

Good for them, and I am happy to see them leave for better pay and what seem like good companies. But there is literally not a single new person who has come that was able to progress or deal with the work load in a few years now. Lots of people who clearly romanticized what we do. I love this job so much but it’s hard fcking work, and I don’t think alot of people have experienced that or realized it. We all do our best to help them transition and learn but we can only do so much.

I don’t even know what to expect for the H1B1 guys that come very soon when it feels like we’re going to be short on drivers in addition to experienced climbers in mentorship roles.

It seems like there’s a lot of very good long term minded business owners on here which is refreshing (where you guys at on Long Island?!) But not all of our management sucks, in fact most is good until you hit the upper tier.
 
Jzack605 said:
It’s definitely crazy out there. I’m not an employer, but a lot of us on the employee/production crew feel the pressure. At least me and my teammates do right now.

We just lost our 3 top climbers very suddenly to other companies offering better pay. One of which was my mentor for climbing so I feel a bit lost with more to learn; we had a great thing going. So frustrating on our end when management doesn’t counter with the same or higher pay to keep them. To not see them think long term is mind boggling. We will never replace those three guys, and it was the same story a few years ago with two different climbers. But the current situation feels more dire with no more of the career climbers that have been doing it 15++ years. We Currently have Two bucket trucks and one CDL driver who is also leaving in 3 months to move south. They let another CDL driver/great climber slip between their fingers just about a year ago. We will have no one to drive the bucket trucks to the job sites in a few months.

Good for them, and I am happy to see them leave for better pay and what seem like good companies. But there is literally not a single new person who has come that was able to progress or deal with the work load in a few years now. Lots of people who clearly romanticized what we do. I love this job so much but it’s hard fcking work, and I don’t think alot of people have experienced that or realized it. We all do our best to help them transition and learn but we can only do so much.

I don’t even know what to expect for the H1B1 guys that come very soon when it feels like we’re going to be short on drivers in addition to experienced climbers in mentorship roles.

It seems like there’s a lot of very good long term minded business owners on here which is refreshing (where you guys at on Long Island?!) But not all of our management sucks, in fact most is good until you hit the upper tier.
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I 100% agree with you…as far as I’m concerned, I want to make my operation one of the best places to work in Ontario, clean shop, uniforms, safety, fun, benefits etc! O did I mention safety? (I’ll do everything in my power to make it a safe and a sweet job, where people love coming to work, have fun and they don’t have to put up with a grumpy pants boss, i hatted that when I was younger). It won’t be easy but I’ll do what I can. One thing that I think makes it hard for employers to create this atmosphere, is they are low balling everything to win jobs and they work too hard for too little and they are spread too thin, this can cause stress, which often spills out over the employees, unfortunately. Just my humble opinion of course, but I’m just a small business trying to grow healthy.

Stay safe ;)
 
RogerM said:
Jzak605... One of the best things to happen to me, that I didn't realize at the time, was having a mentor move on. It helped me to up my game and gain more confidence. I hope the result is the same for you.
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I appreciate the encouragement. I think at the time I posted, and even still, I was just a bit shocked and definitely bummed.
 
When I started, I was self employed. No mentors. No direction. No training. BUT, I had the freedom to try anything and everything under the sun without concern for any level of production. It was all on my terms. This freedom led me to reach for any information I could find from any resource to help build my skill set.

Hands down, the best resources were TreeBuzz, local chapter climbing comps, my local Arb shop, local green industry shows, TCIA Expo, and books upon books upon books.

When I look back at my humble beginnings, I wonder who else might be going through something similar. I usually land ion the sentiment that if you have the passion, it will help you grow, no matter what, but adding the right fertilizer will make you grow stronger in all ways.

I wish you and your company the best of luck!
 
Anonymity said:
Just to be clear, I definitely think too many employers (not all) don’t reward there good employees with great pay etc. I have NO problem sharing the profits so to speak. I only say $25-$35 and up with lots of other benefits because, I’ve had way to many people come to work for me that we’re definitely princesses! Put there’s spurs on backwards if you know what I mean! Can’t climb a 10 foot tree in 2 hours, so if some green young person shows up at the job and doesn’t know left from right, that’s fine. I love the opportunity to help him/her grow to be great (I found this to be extremely rewarding in the past), but sorry I can’t pay them 100k/year to start. Just want to be clear in case someone thinks I’m a lowlife cheapskate employer don’t want to be viewed in that way. ;)
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I quit my job at the tree service today, I worked for him for about 5 years. I was his only employee who was certified arb, who could climb, safely fell a tree, and the only CDL licensed driver (two person workforce). I don’t drink or do drugs, I was always at work early and ready to get shit done. In the 5 years I worked there, we never had anyone last more than a month or two, and each of those were zero experience hires. What you said about “sharing profits” is huge. I couldn’t sit back any longer and watch him buy new equipment (big purchases) every year, as I continue to struggle financially. I made that company profitable, and I don’t feel arrogant at all to say that. Now he’s got nobody to drive his truck, climb on jobs, and run his saws. I was the fool to stay there so long. In my employment there he couldn’t find a climber that was either worth a fuck, or that stayed more than a few weeks. If you don’t invest in the people, all the trucks, chippers, and saws ain’t shit if nobody’s there to run them.
 
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Chris Schultz said:
I quite my job at the tree service today, I worked for him for about 5 years. I was his only employee who could climb, safely fell a tree, and the only CDL licensed driver (two person workforce). In the 5 years I worked there, we never had anyone last more than a month or two, and each of those were zero experience hires. What you said about “sharing profits” is huge. I couldn’t sit back any longer and watch him buy new equipment (big purchases) every year, as I continue to struggle financially. I made that company profitable, and I don’t feel arrogant at all to say that. Now he’s got nobody to drive his truck, climb on jobs, and run his saws. I was the fool to stay there so long.
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Where you headed next?
 
Back quite a few years ago when I worked for Shell (another life) we had an MBA summer student from Holland who was doing research on member owned Co-ops as a means of running all manner of businesses over in the EU. I have often wondered if it would be possible to do this kind of thing with arborist work - there is a place for the big multinationals (Davey etc.) especially the research etc. they do - but what if one of these decided to become a member owned co-op gathering in a bunch of independent operators? Still think it would be an interesting idea, although perhaps not to the head guys of these big firms who are probably now retired several times over on their Sabre sailboats somewhere . . . still . . .
 
ghostice said:
Back quite a few years ago when I worked for Shell (another life) we had an MBA summer student from Holland who was doing research on member owned Co-ops as a means of running all manner of businesses over in the EU. I have often wondered if it would be possible to do this kind of thing with arborist work - there is a place for the big multinationals (Davey etc.) especially the research etc. they do - but what if one of these decided to become a member owned co-op gathering in a bunch of independent operators?
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Absolutely a great direction. Coming into this year I formed a new entity, new insurance, etc. that is all created with the intention of capacity for worker-ownership/membership, profit sharing, etc.

I am still working on details, work order contracts and such. Yet it's been a great thing getting more in order business-wise.

I founded a worker-owned local food & grocery market and kept it open for over 5 years with a cooperative model. I still have the insights of how to track work, split profits, reinvest, hold meetings, etc. I went to a handful of conferences, private consultations, etc. learning the business end, and advanced my study beyond that in the years since.

I am interested in collaborating with other tree folk in this business. In my experience (both in carpentry and trees) it looks cost-prohibitive to keep employees (as a small business), while it's also "illegal" to hire guys for day work without a bunch of hullabaloo. I am moving my work to an entirely membership based model, as it's the best way I can see to provide high value for those I work with as well as the clientele.

It's still in formation; I welcome communication, especially here on conversations if anyone would like to hear more. I will bring more to the table in a new thread some time. I have a biz lawyer looking over final details soon.

Wishing the best to all of you. I, like the local coyotes, am a bit starved and aggressive coming out of another winter. Yet the calm eye of the Bald Eagle I saw with my ground friend the other day, reminds me to stay elevated, take the high post in a pine, and don't move until I am ready.
 
dspacio said:
I founded a worker-owned local food & grocery market and kept it open for over 5 years with a cooperative model. I still have the insights of how to track work, split profits, reinvest, hold meetings, etc. I went to a handful of conferences, private consultations, etc. learning the business end, and advanced my study beyond that in the years since.

I am interested in collaborating with other tree folk in this business. In my experience (both in carpentry and trees) it looks cost-prohibitive to keep employees (as a small business), while it's also "illegal" to hire guys for day work without a bunch of hullabaloo. I am moving my work to an entirely membership based model, as it's the best way I can see to provide high value for those I work with as well as the clientele.
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Whether you call it a co-op or a "guild" of treecrafters - wish you well. There's probably lots of lessons learned in the business literature on Co-ops, for example from the failure of a large Canadian Co-op - that being Mountain Equipment Co-op (MEC), who really screwed up their governance model and their retail product lines and fell on their face in the retail sporting goods trade up here. MBA's and finance/ spreadsheet/ marketing folk don't necessarily a good business make. Take care. I'd be interested in updates as you progress.
 
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If anyone in new England is interested in the Co-OP Model, I Have a ticket to a co-op conference this Saturday I Won't be using.

Located in Belfast Maine. Kinda last minute but shoot me a PM and I'll forward the ticket
 
Addenda to the above discussion on co-ops and employee owned businesses, this was just in the newly released Canadian budget:
"Employee ownership trusts
To encourage employee-owned businesses the budget would create the Employee Ownership Trust, a new, dedicated type of trust under the Income Tax Act to support employee ownership."
Maybe have a look. Don't know if it's well thought out or just more Canadian Federal smoke and mirrors at this point.
Cheers all
 
ghostice said:
Addenda to the above discussion on co-ops and employee owned businesses, this was just in the newly released Canadian budget:
"Employee ownership trusts
To encourage employee-owned businesses the budget would create the Employee Ownership Trust, a new, dedicated type of trust under the Income Tax Act to support employee ownership."
Maybe have a look. Don't know if it's well thought out or just more Canadian Federal smoke and mirrors at this point.
Cheers all
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Very cool. At the least it introduces the concept to a broader reach.

I adapted the worker-cooperative model to fit the form of a Private Express Trust; this was ultimately how we ran the grocery store cooperative. There isn't a dedicated legal form for cooperative in every state (they are introduced by "State Acts"), and the LLC model was not well-fitting. The option to create a private arrangement among the members allows the versatility of true agreement and adaptation.

Rather than paying a State to record all the owners, paying them a fee each time you add or remove, or change any info; instead take the responsibility of keeping records, administering the proportional ownership and distributions according to contract.

If you create a trust in the private domain, the contract itself contains the entire "law" of the agreement, so no Act of government is required to create any form of arrangement the exchangers agree to. Allowing a Worker-owned model is simple, provided that members understand the basics of Trust Law. A Trust gains certain privileges because exchangers have truly given up "ownership" of the assets, instead holding a relative interest in the assets which are owned by the Trust.

Hence, I already find this Act misleading, as one does not "own" a Trust. This sounds like semantics but those are basically what law revolves around.

The hilarity of it, is that the original element of a Trust already provides for all this. Giving it a new name and encouraging a type of use is a nice thought but doesn't add any new tools to game. Ultimately it's up to business people to design and create the relationships and wealth together.
 
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