When is a tree "too dead"?

T

TJinSC

When is a tree \"too dead\"?

My question is actually specific to pine trees in the SouthEast. Besides "gut"feelings that come with experience, are there guidelines or signs to look at to determine if a tree might be too compromised to hold a climber? One friend said if it still has needles holding on the branches it is safe. However in my own yard I have pine that failed at the base and is now hung up in a nearby tree, and months later it still has green needles on it
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Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

[ QUOTE ]
My question is actually specific to pine trees in the SouthEast. Besides "gut"feelings that come with experience, are there guidelines or signs to look at to determine if a tree might be too compromised to hold a climber? One friend said if it still has needles holding on the branches it is safe. However in my own yard I have pine that failed at the base and is now hung up in a nearby tree, and months later it still has green needles on it
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When in doubt i will put a line in a tree and give a pull test. I've had a few good sized ones pull over with a throw-line.

What I look for is where and how it moves. If the movement is to close to the ground (or sub-soil) then I will not climb it; also if there is unusual movement at a major defect.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Well, for one, a tree can begin to "fail" and still be able to transport water and nutrients so that it won't brown out. If there are still healthy attached roots on a tree that has begun to fall, it could stay green in this way for years. That may have been what happened to the tree in your yard. As far as being too dead...there are just so many variables that it kind of comes down to the gut feeling of the experienced climber, in a way. The pull test is good. You have to look for punky-ness, horizontal cracks, basically any sign of complete failure. Sometimes, a tree that has already begun to fall but is in otherwise good shape, can be easier to deal with than one that is upright but in near total disrepair. Guying up a hung green tree is not too awfully difficult as long as mechanical advantage can be supplied in some way. The short answer is, no matter what your experience, if you aren't comfortable with it, walk away. No tree is worth biting the big one. Unfortunately, home owners prove every day, that some people are comfortable making really stupid decisions. It is better to overestimate the hazard than to overestimate the soundness of the tree. That being said, all problems have solutions...some are better than others. I know this isn't really an answer, but your question is a pretty gray area.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Weight of a climber isn't going to have all too much effect on a tree. I have had no problem in going up completely dead, needless, and punky pines. What you need to be more mindful is the forces that you create on the tree in how you choose to remove it. With very low impact to the tree that is structurally sound should be a safe bet but always go by your gut feeling on what you feel comfortable with.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

I had 2 nice cases of dead trees today.

The first one was an Picea Abies (evergreen tree)
It had broken 1/3 from the ground and got stuck in a nearby evergreen and what more the 1/3 that was firmly in the soil was broken in 4 parts, like it had exploded from the middle.
Unbelievable it still was green all the way from ground to the top :)

The second was a totally dead pine tree, no cambium left what so ever, no branches, no needles.
But still standing solid and firm in the ground.
I fell it to the ground and i was astonished to see how hard the wood really was.
It didnt even brake apart when hitting ground, Bad a$$ tree ;)
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

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Weight of a climber isn't going to have all too much effect on a tree. I have had no problem in going up completely dead, needless, and punky pines.

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I've said, almost word for word, what you just said. Then a red maple with live buds and foliage broke at the roots when I was about 40' up... you could say it altered my appearance for a while... worst accident I've ever had. 16" tree and I weigh 185#.

Some dead pines are perfectly safe when they don't even have bark on'em anymore but some with needles and cones are very unstable. You have to pay attention to the roots more than the stem and try to discern what killed it. Bark beetles or lightning from a year ago? No problem. Root decay from excessive moisture or a decay fungus... big problem.

Roots usually decay from the bottom up in a plane. The tree can look good and sound good but it's waiting to kill you if you stress it wrong. Next time you pitch a top from a barkless pine look down at the harmonics in the wobbling stem and consider what kind of stress it puts on the root base.

I like pull tests but don't do'em very often because if I can afford for the tree to fall, I just fall it. Usually I have too many targets to think about.

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What you need to be more mindful is the forces that you create on the tree in how you choose to remove it. With very low impact to the tree that is structurally sound should be a safe bet but always go by your gut feeling on what you feel comfortable with.

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On this part, I couldn't agree more.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Thanks everyone! Guess for the time being if there isn't a secondary TIP I'll just avoid most dead trees for now. At least 'till I get more experience. Any reccomended reading on this topic?
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

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I like pull tests but don't do'em very often because if I can afford for the tree to fall, I just fall it. Usually I have too many targets to think about.

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Exactly. If the tree needs to be climbed, it means I can't fell it because of some limitation. Pulling on it to try to get it to fail is the last thing I would want to do.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Pull testing isn't to try to get it to fail but to load it in a manner for you to see where it might be defective. I did this with a pine at a cottage. The tree was more like a telephone pole so we just felled it. Other cases we've had to devise more sophisticated rigging set ups and TIPS to get the job done.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

But if it fails when you pull it and you have targets, it can be a very expensive way to find out where it is defective.

If I feel like I have to pull test a tree, it's pretty safe to say I'm not gonna climb it direct. If I can use a highline or an alternate TIP great, otherwise, it's time for big tall steel equipment with cables and hooks and stuff.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

When you have targets, it seems like a case by case basis for pulling. A strong guy rope or two would be measures to protect things in the case of a pull-test failure.

Seems that there are trees that would be safe enough to climb, after pull testing, and then some that won't be.

If it is questionable, you might want guy lines in some of those, whether you tie-in to the hazard tree or another.

Seems like a starting point before bringing in a man-lift or crane, or setting up a highline, if would turn out to be too dangerous to climb/ too hard on the nerves to climb.

Pull testing can also shake out some loose dead limbs or the top, that might drop in the immediate vicinity of the stump, which can be helpful if the targets are at a half-tree-height distance away from the stump.

Everyone has to make the decision for themselves whether or not they will climb a tree. One person should not climb it because another person would, whether it is due to having less skill, or less foolish recklessness.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

I've found that if other trees are in favorable locations, I can setup a highline in about half an hour using a static rope like Sterling HTP... less if I'm on with the throwball. You can sufficiently tension a static rope by hand so it's quick.

I guess I don't feel like I personally have sufficient control getting a rope into a dead tree and then pulling it. A nine foot chunk of dead tip can trash a small landscape tree completely. I've taken to digging out the roots and sounding them and then checking for decay on the way up.

But I'm chicken, I won't climb a dead tree without a separate tie-in unless I feel really good about it. I learned that lesson... maybe too well.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

All very good points, Blinky.




The original poster asked to tips and indications about unstable trees.

Something that we all have to ask ourselves is "Am I willing to accept the risk, and all of the consequences?"




Shaking a dead tree is only reasonable if the HO is willing to accept any resulting damages to targets, or pay for preventative measures, such as guying.

Different trees lend themselves differently to remote setting of TIP and Highlines. Skill and patience with the throwline/ bigshot go a LONG way toward efficiency.


Chicken seems the wrong word, and I doubt that you use it without a bit of tongue in cheek. The other end of the spectrum, THE INVINCIBLE TREE CLIMBER, is the real thing to avoid.

Everybody should do what it takes to be physically and mentally safe.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Just wondering Blinky, when the red maple failed, what sort of lateral forces where in play to cause it to happen?
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

[ QUOTE ]
My question is actually specific to pine trees in the SouthEast. Besides "gut"feelings that come with experience, are there guidelines or signs to look at to determine if a tree might be too compromised to hold a climber? One friend said if it still has needles holding on the branches it is safe. However in my own yard I have pine that failed at the base and is now hung up in a nearby tree, and months later it still has green needles on it
confused.gif


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TJ, some pics would allow us to give you many more options than climbing the thing. Targets in the area? Live, healthy, strong trees in the area. Condition of the compromised tree? Size?


P1020671.jpg


Sorry about the sizing.

The blue marking shows what is still alive and growing, supporting the canopy of this willow, which still looked sorta full, of course with dieback, but the tree was very weak. I wasn't climbing too high in this tree, and ratchet strapped the three leads together. Pines are notoriously weak wooded, too.


The heavier the climber, the more force on the tree. I think I read a post where you said you are not a flyweight, no? I'm around 200 with gear, so I work very gently on smaller wood (after years of rock climbing that requires finesse and balance at times more that strength, which is often the case with tree climbing).
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

OK Doug, you outed me.

It was a three stemmed tree, apparently with evidence of hypoxylon near the roots which I didn't see... or look for. I'd taken two of the stems and was in the third. The tree was unbalanced and that was a major factor with regard to climber weight affecting the tree. I was out about 30 degrees away from the stem, I think. I really don't remember... there's a lot from that day I don't remember. Concussions will do that.

I'm just glad I took the lead over the lines first.

GuyMayor was there, I was climbing for him that day. He might be able to add something.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

Sean, definetly not a flyweight. Never considered myself extremely fat, at least not'till I went to the climbing comp in Charlotte last month. Only one or two climbers had any weight to them and they still looked skinny compared to me
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Thanks for the pic. I guess this question will very from species, but how much support does the dead wood lend to the tree? I dont see how that little bit of live wood could support the whole tree.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

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Sean, definetly not a flyweight. Never considered myself extremely fat, at least not'till I went to the climbing comp in Charlotte last month. Only one or two climbers had any weight to them and they still looked skinny compared to me
grin.gif
Thanks for the pic. I guess this question will very from species, but how much support does the dead wood lend to the tree? I dont see how that little bit of live wood could support the whole tree.

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Very right that not only was live wood holding the tree, but the deadwood as well, as in all trees. The point that I was getting at was that often trees can still have live foliage and a sorta fully crown, but be very weak. With compromised trees, one might suspect that the wood was already structurally unsound as compared to the same species in a live, healthy state. Once it has partially failed, decay will likely set in fast in pines, from what I hear about pines (we have few up hear in the PNW, as compared to the SE).

Sounds like you have two parts to investigate, maybe. 1. how strong are healthy pine trees as you may want to climb them for fun. 2. What to do about this hung up pine tree.

Part 1 can involve testing you TIPs with the weight of yourself and another giving a bit of a bounce test, and build you experience based doing, and your knowledge based on doing and asking/reading. A good approach. Have fun climbing strong trees, and leave the worry of tree failure out of the equation.

Part 2 can be to have an experienced climber put said hazard tree on the ground, and you do all the clean-up, saving you money and risk.
Having an end goal that you are trying to achieve like getting that hung up tree safely on the ground, can cloud judgment. "oh, I just need to get a little higher", or "This should work".

Depending on the hang-up, it might be possible to "walk it down" or set a rigging line with cambium saver over a strong enough whorl of branches, then remotely set the line into the hazard tree, and rig it down safely without leaving the ground to cut.

All depends on the individual situation. Any pics?


If your goal is to mitigate the hazard of the hung-up pine at a reasonable price, you can get a couple of bids from reputable companies for putting it on the ground, and leaving it. If you are flexible on the schedule, you can ask for a bid to have it done at their convenience, within a specific time frame (15, 20, 30 days), where they will call you to tell you that they are in the neighborhood and will have a few hours available, and they will come on XXXday.
 
Re: When is a tree \"too dead\"?

[ QUOTE ]


If I feel like I have to pull test a tree, it's pretty safe to say I'm not gonna climb it direct. If I can use a highline or an alternate TIP great, otherwise, it's time for big tall steel equipment with cables and hooks and stuff.

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Very well said, Blink.

Time to wheel in the Big Tall Steel Equipment.....ha!
 
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