What's that magic cut?

Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Nice Reg, that was some sweet big log riggin. Loved the 2:1 on the tag as well.

Off topic, but a question on the two rope rigging system, at one point it appeared as though you had both ropes wrapped on a single bollard, does that work?
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

No worries. Same as crane work....its 90% about the slinging. No need for magic.

2 ropes, two bollards on the same unit. look again. Thanks
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Man that's some technical sh!t Reg! The negative rigging in part 2 was crazy.

I'm still trying to picture how you had the 2 biners strapped to the trunk to keep your lowering lines out of the smash zone...which is an awesome idea. Were they just girthed with long straps?
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

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Man that's some technical sh!t Reg! The negative rigging in part 2 was crazy.

I'm still trying to picture how you had the 2 biners strapped to the trunk to keep your lowering lines out of the smash zone...which is an awesome idea. Were they just girthed with long straps?

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There's a pic of the set-up. Thanks
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Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Reg,

2nd video, about 2 minutes in. Things look a little out of control there. A higher rigging point and cranking it up would have prevented some of that out of control swinging. You were lucky not to get clipped! Fast is a value; control is a higher value. Finding the balance. :)
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
Reg,

2nd video, about 2 minutes in. Things look a little out of control there. A higher rigging point and cranking it up would have prevented some of that out of control swinging. You were lucky not to get clipped! Fast is a value; control is a higher value. Finding the balance. :)

[/ QUOTE ] Hey ward, do you wanna say 'outa control' one more time. I just watched it back on the phone and can't see what you're refering to. 2nd video, 2 minutes, nothing happens? And without a crane, I couldn't possibly have a higher rigging point during any point in the job....at least not one that would hold.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Sorry Reg, Yeah, I think the action I'm referencing begins about 2 minutes in on Part 2 of your Beech Tree Removal--not the Poplar removal. I was lead to that mistakenly by the youtube format (my apologies). It looks to me like (in the Beech removal video) your rigging point (block) is fine, but you are tying off these lateral leaning pieces in the midpoint and they are swinging around pretty dramatically--like a helicopter rotor with you on the same level and plane. You almost get clipped. I'm saying that it looks like you could have tip tied the pieces and cranked them up and that might have prevented the wild, whipping about of the logs to an extent. That would have taken more time...point being that sometimes tip tying and cranking with mechanical advantage has its benefits. Its not overrated, in any case.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
Reg, Yeah, I think its about 2 minutes in..your rigging point (block) is fine, but you are tying off these lateral leaning pieces in the midpoint and they are swinging around pretty dramatically. I'm saying that it looks like you could have tip tied the pieces and cranked them up and that might have prevented the wild, whipping about of the logs to an extent. That would have taken more time...point being that sometimes tip tying and cranking with mechanical advantage has its benefits

[/ QUOTE ] Ward, with so much air-space, it really doesn't matter about a log swinging around for a few seconds, and less so when there's a tag line on it. there must be a gain to warrant cranking stuff up other than trying to make it look pretty. Buying a winch won't make you a better rigger....especially if you never truly learn how to work balance and line angles.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I would agree that buying a winch alone won't make you a better rigger. Using a winch, however, in conjunction with knowledge of line angles and many other things besides, will. In this case, air space was not limited. But if this (your midline attachment and cut free techique) is the only technique a climber has for handling large lateral stems then that could be bad news. (I know you know this). Standing pieces up has its place in the full arsenal of a competent rigger.



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Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I for one think you're doing a pretty jam up job, Reg. I've learned a number of things I'll put into practice. Thanks for that, brother.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree that buying a winch alone won't make you a better rigger. Using a winch, however, in conjunction with knowledge of line angles and many other things besides, will. In this case, air space was not limited. But if this (your midline attachment and cut free techique) is the only technique a climber has for handling large lateral stems then that could be bad news. (I know you know this). Standing pieces up has its place in the full arsenal of a competent rigger.



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[/ QUOTE ] we stand lots of stuff up too ward....whole trees with the truck even. It has its place for sure. But if your winch is maxed out, and your limb is still sitting hard on the stump, then you've already made the mistake....magic cuts we're't the answer. That's how the thread reads to me. Same as craning....often if you sling a pick too high it comes off like $hit. A little lower and it'll separate way smoother. I'm not guessing, or speculating, but speak from experience of rigging and craning thousands of trees....out of necessity, not luxury. No GRCS mate, although I do like them a lot. Cheers.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Reg, Yeah, I think the action I'm referencing begins about 2 minutes in on Part 2 of your Beech Tree Removal--not the Poplar removal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh that video, yeah I know the log you're talking about without even looking
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Its an optical illusion, I was well protected, didn't even flinch. Steve didn't want to let it run because it had so much momentum....so he just let it bang around a little first. If you watch the rest of the footage (especially part 1) you know them boys are well practiced at whats going on there.

Sorry Ward, I was replying from the phone earlier and its easy to misread the text.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Steve and Gus, the good ol' days...

I've probably watched those two vids more than anyone. Got me for both parts again.
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Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
But if your winch is maxed out, and your limb is still sitting hard on the stump, then you've already made the mistake....magic cuts we're't the answer. That's how the thread reads to me. Same as craning....often if you sling a pick too high it comes off like $hit. A little lower and it'll separate way smoother. I'm not guessing, or speculating, but speak from experience of rigging and craning thousands of trees....out of necessity, not luxury.

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Nicely said, Reg. I don't doubt its true. You're welcome to come down to Portland and climb any time.
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Seriously, I think that you might have sent those pieces down sooner rather than having them whipsaw around the main stem like a helicopter rotor. There may have been a reason why that wasn't an option. But those lateral limbs too cannot be cranked up too high...they often break away before being brought to vertical. Nevertheless, having the option to crank up or let down opens things up. You can go smaller and control things better.

My view is that the magic cut for big heavy wood that doesn't want to break free is to do a slender open face towards the block and cut (through). If the grcs is pretensioned, even large logs will jump off the cut once the holding wood has been severed. The slightly downward face will allow the piece to slide free towards the block.

Really big wood--like in the 1,500#+ class is hard to move (period). I don't often force myself to crank up pieces this large for a reason (but when I do...), as it is tiring and can better be accomplished by the slight downward open face.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reg, Yeah, I think its about 2 minutes in..your rigging point (block) is fine, but you are tying off these lateral leaning pieces in the midpoint and they are swinging around pretty dramatically. I'm saying that it looks like you could have tip tied the pieces and cranked them up and that might have prevented the wild, whipping about of the logs to an extent. That would have taken more time...point being that sometimes tip tying and cranking with mechanical advantage has its benefits

[/ QUOTE ] Ward, with so much air-space, it really doesn't matter about a log swinging around for a few seconds, and less so when there's a tag line on it. there must be a gain to warrant cranking stuff up other than trying to make it look pretty. Buying a winch won't make you a better rigger....especially if you never truly learn how to work balance and line angles.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nicely said, from someone with the experience to know what works, whats safe and whats not.
I think GRCS allows some brute force type moves, there are times when smart rigging will get you there faster and easier.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]


Seriously, I think that you might have sent those pieces down sooner rather than having them whipsaw around the main stem like a helicopter rotor. There may have been a reason why that wasn't an option. But those lateral limbs too cannot be cranked up too high...they often break away before being brought to vertical. Nevertheless, having the option to crank up or let down opens things up. You can go smaller and control things better.



[/ QUOTE ]

But nothing came of it, so it makes no odds. Like a controlled explosion, it doesn't really matter that its an explosion.

A wide angle like that a log/limb is inevitably gonna take quite a swing....but let it run and the swing will increase. On a relatively short tree as it was, and no foliage to dampen it, then what? Steve's a treeman, and a boxer in his 20s (back then), he has the reflexes of a cat, I trust him. There's way more critical stuff went down on that job. A little log like that don't even register....but it looked good on playback, so I put it in slowmo. When we have to slow a big wing, which happens weekly, we simply rig/hold it back with another line. Not a big thing.

Thanks for the offer Ward, I'd love to head down your way and see your set-up.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

If there is a magic cut it would have to be the ripstopper, kerf cut, undercut, whatever you call it for stuff you're tied into. Gord showed a vid of a west coast magic cut that was for changing the balance with an undercut notch.
 
Re: Re :To be or not to be

"Everyone knows that you think you know everything there is to know about cutting trees Glen. Tell us something we don't know! "

TEE BALL
 
Magic Cut?

I'm in the let gravity do the work camp, most of the time. Those 600# cylinders sitting vertically like to stay put due to friction. Swinging around kicking at the block trying to dislodge is frowned upon..unprofessional. A cutting technique we use, which will be considered unprofessional by some unpracticed in its finer points is the salami cut. No hinge, no bypass, just and angled cut started on the compression side. If you know in advance the piece is not going leave without a struggle, do something in advance. If you are worried about being the uncontrolled departure of the block, put a tag line on it and give the ground crew something to do.
 
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