What's that magic cut?

Raven

Raven

Branched out member
Location
Northwoods
What\'s that magic cut?

For releasing big leads when using the winch?

Did a big DED Elm takedown yesterday, used the GRCS to swing some leads away from targets. Both me and my climbing partner had the dickens of a time getting the butts to pop off smoothly. Even though we got the load line as taut as possible there was still some pressure pushing down on the butts and then the cutter is forced to put himself into a dangerous position to try to free the beast - not fun.

I tried redesigning my notch/backcut with down sloping angles and big open faced Humboldt but they still didn't want to leave their perch.

I know it has a lot to do with optimum rigging angles too, but I bet someone on here has a trick up their sleeve to get those butts to pop/roll/slide off.
 

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Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Only problem is Bonner, he's gotta work with a face/hinge, for swinging the leads one way or another, so I don't think the snap cut would work.

I've been racking my brain over this one too Raven and all I can remember doing is trying to kick 'em. If that doesn't work I cut more. And you're right, it's not the safest thing in the world.

Mr Beranek, what would you suggest?
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I like to set a second line so the piece can't come back towards me if I have to cut or kick it free. Or you could use a pole saw to stay out of the danger zone. If it's really just hung up from pressure I will put a winch, machine or other mechanical advantage on a pull line. Best I can think is to make the hinge so it closes up just before the end of the movement, so it breaks and rolls off while still moving. I too am interested in other peoples tricks here.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

In most situations a good cut should be able to get the piece on its way. Steep angle on the notch away from the climber and in line with the direction of push back, keep it narrow, so when it closes the hinge breaks, and she slides off. That's especially important on elm, which is really stringy stuff and hard to break. The back cut needs to be steep too, and just a little higher, so it doesn't create a lip that hangs up. As long as the cut is pointed away from the climber he can safely give it a kick if needed. Hard to describe on writing.. Very useful from the bucket where the op doesn't have ability to move away from the cut
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Proper positioning, notch and swing it over, then cut the hinge slowly from the side that wont pinch, while adding the proper tension with the winch. Lifts right off like a crane... as long as you have not over loaded the GRCS.

Snap cuts have there place and lift rigging (GRCS or crane) generally is not it. Makes for sudden release and or heavy winching. Just my opinion.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

How 'bout a shelf cut? Perhaps a diagram af what you were attempting to do with the rigging?

Tony
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

[ QUOTE ]
Proper positioning, notch and swing it over, then cut the hinge slowly from the side that wont pinch, while adding the proper tension with the winch. Lifts right off like a crane... as long as you have not over loaded the GRCS.

Snap cuts have there place and lift rigging (GRCS or crane) generally is not it. Makes for sudden release and or heavy winching. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad advice..
plenty of places in rigging for snap cuts. When the rigging is set right the piece will often move smooth on a snap cut. Generally its best to make one cut and move away as the piece begins to move. If you have to go back and cut the hinge, you might look for a better cut. Of course there are exceptions becasue there are so many variables
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I agree with FS25 here. I rarely use snap cuts with cranes or rigging. Especially if I have to be near for the release because everything happens at once. If its right, you are good. If it's off a little, you could put your self in a dangerous position.
When using a crane or winch, you have the advantage of leveraged control. I prefer to cut straight into the piece to about 70-80% depth (Vertical cut on a horizontal piece; horizontal cut on a vertical piece). I assess and let the limb settle if necessary and then finish by cutting the remaining wood from one side to the other, and perpendicular to the original cut.

This works well for me. I tried to find a video by Reg Coates where he explains this on the ground to his apprentice. I believe he calls it "chasing the cut"

Of course, we are probably getting into preferences here...
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Sorry, just saw that you had an attachment.

What kept you from having the man controlling the winch lift the piece up?

That aside, it looks like even with your setup, angling your cut downward and directly toward the rigging point, would allow the piece to come off.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Thanks, a lot of great replies here.

The problem occurred when the winching was maxed out, either due to snubbing up tight to the block or branch tips getting tangled up. When the space is free and clear then no prob.

I'm liking the tagline more and more as I do this stuff. It could be used to pull the butt off it's perch and then to control unwanted swing, and then to help land the piece - very useful.

I've had some success with cutting a small releasing log either from the lead itself or from the top of the spar it's sitting on. This should be planned in advance so you can optimize your cut angles and you don't have to wing it AFTER the lead gets stuck. The releasing log can be caught on a separate line to avoid property damage.

I do this often with small tree felling in tight spaces. When I can tip tie the tree to something higher, then create a double notch system - one at the base in the direction you want the BUTT to go, then another notch and back cut at three feet high in the OPPOSITE direction. Create both hinges slowly and carefully without getting pinched, then have your helper pull it over with a tagline. That bottom three foot log will fold over like a jackknife leaving the butt pointed towards the chipper. The same technique could be applied in the tree with careful planning and cautious action.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Your last paragraph sounds like what we call, "hanging a tree" but not sure. I like the idea of folding the lower trunk towards the chipper. I'm learning good stuff on the buzz.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I think he's saying that when he cuts loose a large limb and the butt end gets stuck against the cut, he'll cut a small log off of the butt end of the limb to release it from binding. Or, he'll plan ahead and leave a stub when he cuts the big limb loose. If it binds up, he'll just cut the stub off, releasing the limb. I could be wrong but I think that's what he's saying.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

If you're knot is making it to the rigging point I would adjust where you tie your knots. Maybe use a tag line to control the butt if your getting too low. If your running out of pulling power and the GRCS is slipping you can have the groundie or another hang on the rope from the self tailer to add friction.
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

I don't care how perfect you are with your notches or shelf cuts or snap cuts , the fact is there are times when the but just sits there and you you either have to start under cutting the base or kick or tie a rope . It happens , like you said Raven , you were maxed out . My buddy and me made this little tool , like a small pinch bar , not too heavy about ten inches , had on the saddle whan cranking limbs . sslide that right under and pop it off , not talking small limbs either . If I'm doing this out of the bucket , I cut it so close to the trunk , and try an avoid that as much as possible. I think a magic cut would be , if you cut a wrong limb off , than you put it back .
 
Re :To be or not to be

Murph, Have you ever cut a limb while in a saddle , tip tied and cranking as you cut it ? If so , how many times ? If you don't have an answer , than don't answer . It's all about the situation . Whan you crank down . the rigging lead bends, lot of flex , every tree is different . The deader the better . I could go on , But Nurph , you don't know that . your text book . Good luck with that . Every tree is like a book , some of us just show up in the final chapter. There will always be . Be's , and wanna Be's !
 
Re: Re :To be or not to be

I consider the need to crank limbs up with the GRCS a VERY RARE occasion. If you RELY on the GRCS, your rigging and cutting skills could use some improvement. Tips go up down, fast or slow, balance, swing level then drop, swing then lift, whatever is needed, gravity works just fine 99.9+. One rope, one cut.. You might think you know it / seen it all, but you haven't Glen. Now go off on one of your silly tantrums.

Cutting an extremely steep humboldt face, 70º+ on the bottom cut, and 60-45º on the top cut, allows for some movement before seperation. Make the face just narrow enough so it closes early enough to break hinge so you don't have to recut. Cut the top cut on a very steep angle as well 70ºish and make sure it comes in high relative to the face, so it doesn't leave a lip that can hang up. As soon as the hinge breaks if there is any weight on the but, it will slide right down and away. This protects the climber/cutter from having the but come back at him. AND if you misjudge it and need to recut to finish off the hinge, you can ALWAYS cut the hinge from the top, no need to undercut.

Everyone knows that you think you know everything there is to know about cutting trees Glen. Tell us something we don't know!
 
Re: What\'s that magic cut?

Standing stuff up is overrated, Eric....unless you have lots of unimpeded air-space between the top of the limb and the rigging point. To stop the down pressure on the stump, you need to set your rigging line a little lower on the limb, and it'll come off easy....because you're adding a little more tilt to it. Say, a third of the weight above where your knot is, and two thirds weighted below. You don't need a special cut, just pre-loading.

Just 20 mins of your life mate, you might see something familiar. All kinds cutting and tie-ing....but no pinching, nor head scratching, not once.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wb1Xbr-V-U&feature=share&list=UUpYc97NCVnOjJtrDQlQjtbA

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaGo69VxZJg
 
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