What to tell customers to expect from working with a Crane Company

ward

ward

Participating member
Location
Unincorporated Clackamas, OR
Had a misunderstanding with a client recently about crane company cost overruns. This after the crane company had rescheduled the work 4 x over. Got me thinking to tighten up my language about what clients can expect from working with cranes and the billing practices of crane companies. Let me know if you think I'm missing stuff that should be put in there.


Crane companies are independent subcontractors. Crane companies bill their work by the hour, and that hourly rate includes travel time portal to portal, set up time, hook time, but to this may be added auxiliary expenses such as a fuel surcharge, travel permits, and other incidental expenses. The time represented above is a rough estimate; customers will be billed the actual costs which are determined by the crane company for its actual time and expenses after the work is completed. In our final invoice to the customer, we will itemize the Crane Company's invoice. The customer is liable for the actual cost of the crane service, not the estimated cost. Crane companies often cancel and reschedule tree jobs for reasons particular to the way that they do business. MY TREE COMPANY LLC uses cranes as necessary and asks that clients know that we cannot foresee nor do we have control over their scheduling and other variables of the crane company's actual costs and invoice. Understand that MY TREE COMPANY LLC cannot be held liable for the effects of changes to the schedule brought about by the Crane Company and it is the responsibility of the customer to cover the actual costs of the final invoice of the Crane Company.
 
Maybe it's just because the crane guys around here amazing but it sounds like you need a new crane service. I can't say that I change the customers cost based on a sub contractors cost. My quote is my price, right or wrong. Most times it's good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes you work it out amongst the subs and yourself on this job. Just my opinion.
 
In the first place, the smaller crane companies in our area are awesome and are good to work with, but they don't have the heavy artillery. So, we have 2 large crane companies in our area and they are highly money driven. They don't pull cranes away from work that needs to continue (usually larger municipal jobs or wind turbine contracts) and this puts the little tree guys in precarious situations, when they are constantly calling and telling us that their crane won't show because it is still needed elsewhere. Over the last few months we've scheduled 9x with them. They are 1 for 9 in terms of scheduling. Rather than holding the shitbag and explaining it to the customer, I thought I'd give it to them all at once out front so that they would know and there would be no misunderstanding.

I think it is standard practice here to pass along the crane cost as a variable cost: you quote the hourly rate and bill them whatever the final cost amounts to. I envy your ability to predict what your crane cost will be and take what chance delivers to you. At $350 an hour with 9% fuel surcharge, I'd rather pass the cost along as a variable cost than play Svengali with a crystal ball.
 
Last edited:
I haven't had any jobs big enough to require a crane, however, I've looked into it for when it inevitably does happen, and I fully intend to price accordingly as a variable expense.

If I fudge an estimate for a job I'm working by my self or even with a helper, I can suck it up. At $300+/hr for a crane, I wouldn't want to even screw the pooch by an hour. And the reality is, tree removals and trimming are like a lot of other contracting work. You have an idea what your getting into but you never really know until your in there.

I would try and work with your crane company as well if possible and see if they can take a look and give you an idea on some jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Variable pricing will only get you so far. Eventually you will have a misunderstanding that costs you in reputation not money. When I first started working with cranes in PA I did exactly what you guys are describing, but I had a job where I ate a great big $h1t sandwich because of a misunderstanding. That short period of time did two things for me; 1) taught me what the specific cranes and operators can do in "x" time and gave me a bit of perspective as to what we were capable of doing.
You need to get it down on what you can and can't do, and what it's going to cost. Set a price and stick to it. Don't let yourself be on the negative side of crane work. Typically the trees are more hazardous and worth more money. Crane works is typically has a better margin for me only because I set the price. If I tried to use variable pricing, I wouldn't be doing crane work because no one would hire me.

Scheduling is a completely different ball game. @monkeylove is right you need a new crane service. If they are bumping you 9 outa 10 times they don't value you as a client and they wouldn't get my money, PERIOD. We are extremely lucky to have a couple awesome crane services available to us. One guy has 7 cranes, 30-65 ton and the other I think 5, 36-50 ton. And the only time we have issues getting cranes is during storms but one of them can normally service us.
 
When we hire a crane to process our jobs we run it for a full day. We pay port to port but work the crane to it's fullest for the day or the weekend. On crane day the goal is to keep the stick moving. Some jobs don't even get chipped till the next day, depending on the work load. Most jobs the chipper is rolling with the crane but may end up trailing behind. We explain our practices to the client before hand, and they understand scheduling can get overwhelming to fit in a hired crane. As long as the clean up occurs shortly after ... everyone is happy. Most jobs are cleaned up within the same day. The jobs that are not ... we make sure the client is comfortable with this before hand. Repeat customers are usually the best for this.
 
flyingsquirrel25 said:
Variable pricing will only get you so far. Eventually you will have a misunderstanding that costs you in reputation not money. When I first started working with cranes in PA I did exactly what you guys are describing, but I had a job where I ate a great big $h1t sandwich because of a misunderstanding. That short period of time did two things for me; 1) taught me what the specific cranes and operators can do in "x" time and gave me a bit of perspective as to what we were capable of doing.
You need to get it down on what you can and can't do, and what it's going to cost. Set a price and stick to it. Don't let yourself be on the negative side of crane work. Typically the trees are more hazardous and worth more money. Crane works is typically has a better margin for me only because I set the price. If I tried to use variable pricing, I wouldn't be doing crane work because no one would hire me.

Scheduling is a completely different ball game. @monkeylove is right you need a new crane service. If they are bumping you 9 outa 10 times they don't value you as a client and they wouldn't get my money, PERIOD. We are extremely lucky to have a couple awesome crane services available to us. One guy has 7 cranes, 30-65 ton and the other I think 5, 36-50 ton. And the only time we have issues getting cranes is during storms but one of them can normally service us.
Click to expand...
Sorry, the only part of my quote on a crane job that is variable is the crane price itself. All other aspects--our work--has a particular fixed cost. Also, the crane class is a lot larger here (115 ton) which puts me (the little fish) needing the services of the big crane outfits which generally tolerate but don't seem to care much for the 3 hour tour of a fully stripped spar that can be pieced down for 1.5 hours of hook time. I give them french fries and they are looking for the Big Mac
 
Last edited:
96coal449 said:
When we hire a crane to process our jobs we run it for a full day. We pay port to port but work the crane to it's fullest for the day or the weekend. On crane day the goal is to keep the stick moving. Some jobs don't even get chipped till the next day, depending on the work load. Most jobs the chipper is rolling with the crane but may end up trailing behind. We explain our practices to the client before hand, and they understand scheduling can get overwhelming to fit in a hired crane. As long as the clean up occurs shortly after ... everyone is happy. Most jobs are cleaned up within the same day. The jobs that are not ... we make sure the client is comfortable with this before hand. Repeat customers are usually the best for this.
Click to expand...
I could see that working with some types of jobs. Given the distances in some jobs and size picks, a 30 ton crane is perfect. A lot of jobs a 270 ton crane or a 115 might be needed. Wouldn't want to have to lug that up and down the hillsides of portland chasing a string of removals.
 
ward said:
Sorry, the only part of my quote on a crane job that is variable is the crane price itself. All other aspects--our work--has a particular fixed cost. Also, the crane class is a lot larger here (115 ton) which puts me (the little fish) needing the services of the big crane outfits which generally tolerate but don't seem to care much for the 3 hour tour of a fully stripped spar that can be pieced down for 1.5 hours of hook time. I give them french fries and they are looking for the Big Mac
Click to expand...

Crane size shouldn't matter or effect the way the company treats its clients or potential clients. I understand you are the little fish, but so am I. Until this year I was hard pressed to spend 10k with our guys... and that is peanuts to these guys (all cranes out for 8 hrs = 10k+). The cranes around us have a minimum of 4 hrs this way it works out for him on short jobs and he gets prime rib. Like @96coal449 said you just keep him moving onto the next one. Of course they don't want to break away from a 8 or 16 hr job for 1.5... the economy isn't there. You have to put a string of them together.
So my question back to you would be how often do you fall short on your side of the job when working with a crane? Is it only the cost of the crane with the hidden costs that scares you?
 
flyingsquirrel25 said:
Crane size shouldn't matter or effect the way the company treats its clients or potential clients. I understand you are the little fish, but so am I. Until this year I was hard pressed to spend 10k with our guys... and that is peanuts to these guys (all cranes out for 8 hrs = 10k+). The cranes around us have a minimum of 4 hrs this way it works out for him on short jobs and he gets prime rib. Like @96coal449 said you just keep him moving onto the next one. Of course they don't want to break away from a 8 or 16 hr job for 1.5... the economy isn't there. You have to put a string of them together.
So my question back to you would be how often do you fall short on your side of the job when working with a crane? Is it only the cost of the crane with the hidden costs that scares you?
Click to expand...
flyingsquirrel25 said:
Crane size shouldn't matter or effect the way the company treats its clients or potential clients. I understand you are the little fish, but so am I. Until this year I was hard pressed to spend 10k with our guys... and that is peanuts to these guys (all cranes out for 8 hrs = 10k+). The cranes around us have a minimum of 4 hrs this way it works out for him on short jobs and he gets prime rib. Like @96coal449 said you just keep him moving onto the next one. Of course they don't want to break away from a 8 or 16 hr job for 1.5... the economy isn't there. You have to put a string of them together.
So my question back to you would be how often do you fall short on your side of the job when working with a crane? Is it only the cost of the crane with the hidden costs that scares you?
Click to expand...
We must be in very different locales with very different trees and very different geography. In my area you don't just string together a bunch of big removals for the 275 ton crane to zig and zag from. The trees are so different, the topography and traffic wouldn't allow for this kind of job hopping. I could see doing a few removals in a day using the 30 or 40 ton crane, but hey, that's what we do anyway. The main point of the thread here is how to communicate the pricing and scheduling of cranes to clients who don't know what kind of extra shenanigans to expect.
As for whether we fall short on the side of working with cranes it is only not communicating the extent to which their billing is different from mine and their scheduling practices are different. The hidden costs are not scary to me (I marvel at their ability to squeeze every penny out of the air)--but they could be to a client who is not adequately prepared for them.

The 2 large crane companies I referenced are both too large to care about small tree company jobs. Since they are the only operations in town who own and operate the heavy artillery, one becomes beholden to them to an extent, one pay's one's pizzo so to speak. It is embarrassing to me to have to put all this stuff about the proclivity of crane's for resheduling in the boilerplate of my bids, to be sure.
 
Last edited:
Here's a scenario. Suppose you have a hazard tree that is imminently going to fail. Client books your services, you schedule the crane, crane cancels and, in the intervening week before it can be rescheduled, the tree fails. Are you, the contractor, liable for the damages?
 
Looks like there are those who bundle the estimated crane cost into their final invoice, regardless of what the actual crane invoice is. I wonder, however, if those who purport to bundle have ever been asked for an itemization for an insurance claim job? Did the claims adjuster accept your bundled estimate at face value or did they ask for an actual invoice from the crane company? My experience is that they want to see the two prices separated and they only want to pay for the actual invoice of the crane company for the work. I suppose you could do it differently from that with clients, but the fact that insurance companies ask for it that way (maybe they do it differently than I have seen?) is an indication that it is the actual cost of the crane that it is rational to pay for, not the estimated cost.
 
ward said:
But what if he didn't? Would you be liable if you didn't tell the customer first that this is a possibility?
Click to expand...

If I schedule he shows up, and if something more hazardous came up, there would be a phone conversation to discuss the solution. He has 7 cranes one would show up. I posted somewhere in work photos a tulip poplar we did last summer, I couldn't get my normal guy (he was honest that he couldn't help me). I went to another company an hour north and he had no problem breaking 2 cranes away to deal with the hazard tree. I'm my book the more hazardous the higher the priority. But the cancellation/reschedule is my call.
As for insurance companies, they can be a pain all around. They have always asked me for a cost to remove the tree from the structure (and put it on the ground), and then a cost for clean up and debris removal. Never been asked to split out the crane bill because thats part of the cost of removal, but not the only cost. They have to think about my time too.
You are correct our trees are different. Probably smaller!

ward said:
The main point of the thread here is how to communicate the pricing and scheduling of cranes to clients who don't know what kind of extra shenanigans to expect.
It is embarrassing to me to have to put all this stuff about the proclivity of crane's for resheduling in the boilerplate of my bids, to be sure.
Click to expand...

I can imagine how embarrassing it has to be. Like I said before I couldn't get away with saying this is for me and there will be more from the crane... I just can't say how much. Like you said though, it's a completely different market.
Good luck
 
An emergency hazardous trees are scheduled and billed differently with us. In this senario the crane and op would get emergency pay also. He bumps everyone in his schedule for a morning or we will hit the job after regular work hours. We only have 2 cranes we use but usually can get someone for a planed day or two on regular jobs. Our trees are definitely shorter around here.
 
flyingsquirrel25 said:
Crane size shouldn't matter or effect the way the company treats its clients or potential clients. I understand you are the little fish, but so am I. Until this year I was hard pressed to spend 10k with our guys... and that is peanuts to these guys (all cranes out for 8 hrs = 10k+). The cranes around us have a minimum of 4 hrs this way it works out for him on short jobs and he gets prime rib. Like @96coal449 said you just keep him moving onto the next one. Of course they don't want to break away from a 8 or 16 hr job for 1.5... the economy isn't there. You have to put a string of them together.
So my question back to you would be how often do you fall short on your side of the job when working with a crane? Is it only the cost of the crane with the hidden costs that scares you?
Click to expand...
To answer your question, the answer is (with respect to the crane) never because I pass the whole cost right through. The only question is can we be efficient within our part of the process. To that question I'd say we do pretty well because we have the skills and can get it done. With respect to being outraged by the unequal treatment dealt me by the big guy, believe me, I've shared my outrage with the big fish crane companies about this. Their rule on the heavy artillery is that it must stay on site until the job is done: they don't pull off big cranes even if you are scheduled. Seems like a terrible rule for customer service, but then again, we don't have the 5 million dollar crane and its pile of expenses. Remember this boilerplate language thing isn't about telling customers all of the good things about cranes, but preparing them for rainy day scenarios should they arise.
 
Last edited:
ward said:
To answer your question, the answer is (with respect to the crane) never because I pass the whole cost right through. The only question is can we be efficient within our part of the process. To that question I'd say we do pretty well because we have the skills and can get it done. With respect to being outraged by the unequal treatment dealt me by the big guy, believe me, I've shared my outrage with the big fish crane companies about this. Their rule on the heavy artillery is that it must stay on site until the job is done: they don't pull off big cranes even if you are scheduled. Seems like a terrible rule for customer service, but then again, we don't have the 5 million dollar crane and its pile of expenses. Remember this boilerplate language thing isn't about telling customers all of the good things about cranes, but preparing them for rainy day scenarios should they arise.
Click to expand...

The reason I asked is as long as you have the time down on how long it's going to take (because you do well on your aspects of the job) you could very easily come up with how much an hour (including all the extra charges) the crane will cost and lump it all together in one price. Add a "safety factor" if it makes you feel better. Cool thing is if you knock it out of the park, cut the client a break, they are loyal to you forever (and you still do well). This just puts everything in black and white, no questions it cost $xyz. No need for complicated boiler plate.
I can't even fathom how frustrating it is to deal with scheduling like that, I would have an ulcer or a coronary buy now. There is way too much set up lining things up for a crane day to have it cancelled that often. Sounds like there is a great opportunity for a tree oriented crane service out there in the west!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom