"walking down a tree"

southsoundtree

southsoundtree

Been here much more than a while
Location
Olympia, WA
\"walking down a tree\"

This tree was uprooted and hung up in another adjacent tree.

I use the cut taught by the USFS for "walking it down" for the first two cuts. It ended up suspended, as the two tops grew in a tangled way. I ended up having to climb the alder to section down the fir, after pull testing/ trying to shake the fir out.

Because this is attached to the stump, the bottom of the doug-fir is actually the compression side, or changes to the compression side, as the cut progresses. If it were not attached to the stump, then the bottom would be the compression side, and the reaming cut would have been more important.

I didn't have a square grind file to sharpen the chain. Its a bit dull. I was just helping my neighbor here, so I wasn't cutting anything up, and didn't bother changing chains.

The second section cut (not completed in the video) had compression on the bottom. This can be reamed and followed through from the middle of the log, or finished with a matching cut from the bottom upward. I suppose that an offset cut could be used, but I don't see a purpose.

Be safe, all.


CLICK THE PICTURE FOR VIDEO.




The attachment shows the order for a "walk down" as taught to me by the USFS.

As a disclaimer: Don't do this. This is not training. You could be killed cutting anything.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

By cutting the "off-side" first, you can use your bar tip to be farther from that spike of the log, which can/ will amputate your foot if you put your foot in the landing zone. I think that I was 3-4' from the spike of the log when it landed, which could have been more if I tripped it and 1) stepped back more, 2) used a longer bar, or 3) tripped it with a pole saw.

Be safe, all.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

That is a nice cut..
thanks fo posting that video and furthering the discussion.

I started using that cut in 1989 in Charlotte NC after Hugo. Used it hundreds of times in two months. Took one tulip tree down off a house that had been totalled. The tree hit so hard, it knocked the house out of sqaure. Not a door or window would open. Needless to say that was a big tree.

Therein lies one of the benefits of using the plunge which is obviously just a variation of the same basic vertical cut. On a big tree you need to start high enough so that by the time the cut reaches diagonally to the bottom of cut, there is still some distance between that and the ground.

obviously the higher you start, the more drop you get. The plunge allows you to make the cut higher without having to bring the body of the saw up and over the leaning trunk. With the USFS method, you'd need to actually get on top of a big stem, which brings its own safety concerns. So even if you accidenntally leave too much holding wood up top, and have to trip the fall by cutting the top strap, (as in the below video at 6:50), you never have to reach up and over the trunk with the body of the saw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5bt6NJEVAI

Also as you mention, the tension/compression can be hard to determine and actually change as the cut progresses. By adding the plunge, you take the tension and compression out of the equation. You don't have to think about it (or use wedges) becasue they don't matter.

I can see how someone that has never seen a verical cut tripped would be afraid of the falling butt, so close to the faller.. You obviously do not have that concern, becasue you know better. there is no way that butt is coming back at you as long as the tree isn't tip heavy. SO how can you could fail to see the many advantages of adding a plunge to the same basic vertical cut?

Seems pretty obvious ... no one even showed me the cut.. John Paul Snabon just casually mentioned adding the plunge to me in 2004, and I could easily picture in my mind just how many advantages that creates.

What's up with that Sean? Just becasue it isn't in your boy scout manual yet doesn't mean it doesn't work.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

"If you want to learn nothing, start by thinking you know everything and take it from there."

-Daniel Murphy
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

From my chair, the plunge cut method looks neither safer or more effective than the method used by Southsound. Cutting the far side allows the sawyer the opportunity to be as far away from the dropping stem as possible. I'll stick with the USFS method thanks.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

with a sharp saw, southsounds method probably is very effective. That was almost painful to watch. Cutting hazards with a dull saw is increasing you liklihood of accidents for sure. Nice to see a live version of the USFS method though. Thanks.
I will give the plunge cut method an equal rating to the USFS method. I have been using the plunge method more and more, and am liking it a lot. I need to use the USFS more though, to really be a judge. I guess they both have their applications...
thanks again
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

I haven't had to use it on a 30" tree. If I did, I could just stand on one side and cut it vertically, half width, rather then rocking over. At the beginning or end of the one side, I'd follow the kerf over the top allowing me to begin on the other side with one continuous kerf. Once on the other side, I'd be able to follow in the kerf down through the compression wood (if off the stump). By reaming the cut, you can continue through the tension wood.

I would figure that a saw with a sharp chain, you could cut a 30" tree with a 20" bar.
Norm Hall asked about 24" dbh, and Daniel 30". What do you think will be different? Maybe more likely to possibly need a wedge somewhere, possibly due to side bind?




I think that I may have mentioned (but in case I didn't) that the way I was taught by the Forest Service feller ( A "C" Certifier, as in he can train and grant "C" Feller Certification to his trainee), was to cut up through the tension wood (when off the stump) on the fourth quarter to meet the kerf of the third quarter. I changed it to the reaming cut to use gravity to my advantage. If you might drop through the cut and/or get the bar trapped (somehow??) or dirt your chain(more the case), the upward on the fourth quarter gives you a bit more room. (This was just the basic S-212 training intended for wildland firefighters, but not actually for WLFFs, btw)

I'd typically get myself positioned to continue the downward motion, slowly tripping the last of the holding wood, drawing down and out, engaging the chain brake with my wrist, getting my hand away from the throttle/ throttle interlock, and moving away if the tree is in some strange, hard to predict situation, such as multiple trees stacked together from a storm.






Chep is true that dull tools are more likely to result in an accident. I just couldn't bring myself to round file the square chain this time. I took dullness into account. I didn't have to force anything, just be more patient and extra aware. Ben was sick last week, after recently being away on vacation, and I just didn't have time to get to the saw shop for that file. I didn't want to lunk my 064 with a 28" bar back to the back pasture, along with my other gear, so I ran it dull for a couple of cuts.



Daniel, I saw that you put up another response, that I think had questions, likely unanswered here. I just haven't had/ taken time to read it at this point. I got in after dark tonight and will be tuning into a movie with the rest of my late dinner. I had lunch at 4pm today.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

I just read it.

I think that walking around the tree, as mentioned above, is pretty simple. No need to put the body of the saw on top, nor climb on top. No rocket science training required.

Makes me think of a funny story that I heard an ex-wife say about her ex-husband: "Back in 1983, he had to give in that, while he wasn't wrong, I was actually right about something."


I don't think that anyone, Boy Scout Manual reader or otherwise, has said that the boring strap on top part doesn't work (they only commented about how the bottom part didn't work, frankly, I didn't bother to review), just that they don't see it as a very save option, as purported. My take on the other thread is that you seemed to get taken off guard (NEWS FLASH, only everyone else thinks that you were taken off guard) and were unnecessarily close to a large moving mass of tree.


People can take or leave either method. Each will work in different situations. People can go for the tongue-and-groove (or whatever it was that Robinia called it, sorry Rob), or using a face cut an backcut, with or without the rope, or wedging the backcut. Each with its own Pros and Cons.

Now back to the boy scout manual reading. Nothing like someone resorting to insulting people to make prove how strong a case they have. I think that it is how the US Supreme Court comes to decisions.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

[ QUOTE ]
People can take or leave either method. Each will work in different situations. People can go for the tongue-and-groove (or whatever it was that Robinia called it, sorry Rob), or using a face cut an backcut, with or without the rope, or wedging the backcut. Each with its own Pros and Cons.



Now back to the boy scout manual reading. Nothing like someone resorting to insulting people to make prove how strong a case they have. I think that it is how the US Supreme Court comes to decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time Sean to post it.

I have used both the USFS method and Burnham's notch and backcut method, but haven't tried the plunge cut method that Danial describes.

Not saying one is better than the other. Each has its pros and cons, depending on the situation.

Danial, why insult Sean with your "boy scout manual" comment?
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

Yeah I agree a notch would be a little better as for the plunge cut I use it to control a barber chair tree. I have seen and went through a pair of chaps using that plunge cut hitting junk in the tree. Its like this and this was the best advice given to me "use the cutting skills you know and use and rely on your gut " when it comes to removing hazard trees. I have walked trees down useing the the spear method as shown in the vid, the snap cut method,the notch and cut. Thanks for the vid nice cutting. I have found that with anything over 14" dbh cut a notch and wedge the back cut, and try to get the tree movement in your head before any cut.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

Toparboring, please clarify. On which side are you notching, for the most part? Are you notching the top, backcutting the underside to drop the top in to a more vertical position? Or do you notch it more to the sides, say if the top is more to the left of the stationary trees' mass, you'd notch on the left, backcutting and wedging on the right, with the goal of the butt of the top dropping to the right, helping it roll out?



Its probably been mentioned, and NOT directed at you TA, but at the risk of repeating a safety aspect, a rope just above the notch is a good way to avoid tripping side-notched hung-up tops with wedges. Fallers don't typically have a rope with them. Its harder to be farther out of the dropzone of the butt when banging wedges in the side.


As another aside,
I like my feet as they are, so if the variables are at all hard to predict, I usually will be sure to take my hearing protection off as soon as I am done cutting, then bang a wedge and step back, seeing if the wedge was effective enough to "break the camel's back", and the top will slowly shift and close the face. If not, I eye my escape route again, noting tripping hazards, etc, bang the wedge again, and move back a step of two. Sometimes, over cautious, but better than under cautious.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

Sean I would notch on the side that would have the most use of the roll out all depending on the snag of the tree and the location . If centered near the trunk I would use a rope if not climb the tree it is snagged in. On the hand that is on the branch more and the roll a notch more on the side to direct the roll. As for wedges they are used to direct the tree with roll. I try as much to get the tree to the more vertical if not roll it out. With wedges I do take off the muffs to hear the tree.

I have used the notch on the top and under cut the from the back. That is the probably not the most used technique, do to the sudden weight of the tree being on the saw bar and pushing it towards the ground if not out.

I do use rigging to help out as much as possible should have put that in the first post,and use a longer bar on the saw to keep the danger factor to a minimum as much as you can with a snag.
Just the past weekend I helped out my bro inlaw take care of a 28 dbh snag. used the big shot to isolate 3/4 the way up with rigging line hooked up a come along about 150' away and made the notch more to the right in the direction of the roll. keeping the tension on the line did the back cut putting in wedges to keep the tension off the bar. At the 3/4 way through point pulled the saw away and drove the wedges, and pulled the rigging, hearing the snapping stopped and watched the snag roll out. I know I will get flack for the method, and will take it the gut was saying yeah do it. Do to time and worsening weather conditions the brain was on auto pilot. With all snags I have done I keep all others out of the way

The brother in law just smiled called me crazy, I just smiled and said logger to him(20 yrs logging history). his last almost was his last on earth. Used the plunge cut and tripping the back of the plunge the tree about exploded off the trunk,rolled out and almost went back on him hitting the ground 1'in front of him (in his escape route).

All I can say is carry with you the knowledge and tools into these jobs and if it doesn't feel right recheck and rethink. I know others on here have other methods and I am always open to them . I do like this thread this is something that we deal with and with storm clean up deal with more of all input is well worth it. Sean thanks for starting this thread.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

I think that a lot of people can file something away in their knowledge base from this, and other similar threads.

This is not a typical situation to have to deal with, in our day to day work. Very different conditions that we will have to adapt to, whether is is logging and wanting to keep log value, residential work where it doesn't matter, on the stump or off the stump, on a house or not.

I think that for a house that is totaled, it doesn't really matter much, but for a house that is being rebuilt, we probably won't always want to slide it down.

An important point that Daniel made is that it could be top heavy over a house or other tree. An important thing to be aware of before cutting, especially if storm thrown, or there is a tree pile up, or perhaps ice/ snow loading.
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

Hey Sean
Are you ever gonna man up and respond to the second video I put up showing tripping some real trees...

Here's the link for those that missed it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0j69NCIKfw

Clearly faster and easier than going over the top as per your boy scout manual..

You usually have a lot to say.. What's up with your atypical silence here pal?

You want to go off into some minutia fantasies for page after page, but have not a word to say when a man shows up with something real... that's why you get called a boy scout..

Hey, that's better than a girl scout :)
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

Daniel, if only you could step outside of yourself and witness how other people see your communication style.

Maybe then you wouldn't wonder why everyone thinks you're a giant D-bag.

SZ
 
Re: \"walking down a tree\"

I have repeatedly asked him politely to respond to the second video.. He loves to run his mouth on manic tree fantasies that show his inexperience. I on the otherhand tell you how to put the wood on the ground and then showed it....... REPEATEDLY

And now he's got tight lips...

let him man up if he can ..

You're not his Daddy.
 
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