Very Honest Arborist Podcast

[ATH]

I find personality sells too. Many times I've had potential customers say they are choosing to go with me, even though my prices were higher, because they got a good vibe.

People like to feel comfortable with the contractors they hire.

Yeah...I had one guy who after he approved the quote said "I knew I was hiring you when you explained that was a Siberian elm and won't get Dutch Elm Disease...the other guy didn't seem to know that. I just wanted to get your quote before telling you that."

(I'm pretty sure this happens pretty often...but not many are that explicit telling me. I can probably bump prices a little more and get away with it, but in a good place now, feel like I'm treating people right/turning a fair profit, and I like getting approved for most of the jobs I bid.)

 

[Boomslang]

and I like getting approved for most of the jobs I bid.)

It a great feeling knowing you're not wasting time on quotes you probably won't get.

I think last year I was around 75% conversion on my bids. More and more are coming from word of mouth too, so people already know what I bring to the table quality wise. Often they'll say they made up their minds to go with me before calling. They just want a price to budget it in their finances.

 

[oceans]

I've had years over where I made lots of cash but I worked a lot. Not sustainable for me. That's something lay people don't always think about, can't do this work forever!

C.o.l. is super high here too so 100k isn't getting rich by any means, more like barely making it.

It seems like the best way to get paid in trees is either exploit other people's labor or sell a lot of pesticides, or both.

Mechanizing has been my way of doing more work and making more by exploiting equipment and not people. Making a bunch of money off someone else’s back never sat right in my heart.

 

[oceans]

Great third option! I am so far from mech savvy that I probably wont embark on that journey. I love watching your progression though, and Aaron too, you guys are killing it.

I've thought about just getting one machine to work when I get older, one of those mini cranes is top of the list but I might be better suited for a stump grinder

I might start killing it in one more year from now when all my loans are squared. A lot came back to back, but being leveraged is ok if you can keep all the equipment in good shape and continue to use it after it’s paid off.

That said, maybe think outside the box and buy something that nobody else really has that gives you a slight niche. The crane has been great for a number of reasons in that vein.

 

[ATH]

I might start killing it in one more year from now when all my loams are squared. A lot came back to back, but being leveraged is ok if you can keep all the equipment in good shape and continue to use it after it’s paid off.

That said, maybe think outside the box and buy something that nobody else really has that gives you a slight niche. The crane has been great for a number of reasons in that vein.

Or knowledge that nobody else has.

Years ago, I heard John Ball talk about marketing tree care marketing. He said something to the effect:
*People will pay for something they don't want to do (mowing for example)
*They will pay more for something they don't have the equipment to do (if they think they are hiring you for the chipper, for example)
*They will pay the most for something they don't know how to do.

 

[Matias]

Great third option! I am so far from mech savvy that I probably wont embark on that journey. I love watching your progression though, and Aaron too, you guys are killing it.

I've thought about just getting one machine to work when I get older, one of those mini cranes is top of the list but I might be better suited for a stump grinder

There are still other ways to diversify. My plan is based on the demand I know exists in my area for a good nursery. When I worked at the garden shop, people would complain all the time that they have to drive to the next city for nurseries, but if I lived in that city, I would have to figure something else out. I say all this to illustrate that finding your niche can be different even from one city to the next.

 

[ATH]

There are still other ways to diversify. My plan is based on the demand I know exists in my area for a good nursery. When I worked at the garden shop, people would complain all the time that they have to drive to the next city for nurseries, but if I lived in that city, I would have to figure something else out. I say all this to illustrate that finding your niche can be different even from one city to the next.

That's cool! I've thought about growing some trees just because I cannot always find some of what I'm looking for...but I'm not ready to jump in head first. It's hard to start "nursery light" because I can't buy liner stock in small quantities - like 10 of these and 10 of those, etc...

Getting a well drill in the next couple of weeks may help make it easier to spend money on trees know I can keep them alive.

 

[Matias]

That's cool! I've thought about growing some trees just because I cannot always find some of what I'm looking for...but I'm not ready to jump in head first. It's hard to start "nursery light" because I can't buy liner stock in small quantities - like 10 of these and 10 of those, etc...

Getting a well drill in the next couple of weeks may help make it easier to spend money on trees know I can keep them alive.

We plan to have a diverse selection of ornamentals, veggie starts, trees, etc...

We are slowly building inventory, and my wife and I have looots of experience in running black market nurseries from back when that was worth it. We can definitely compete with home depot, walmart, and tractor supply.

 

[ATH]

We plan to have a diverse selection of ornamentals, veggie starts, trees, etc...

We are slowly building inventory, and my wife and I have looots of experience in running black market nurseries from back when that was worth it. We can definitely compete with home depot, walmart, and tractor supply.

I wouldn't even think of them as "competition"...I imagine you an entirely different market for selection and quality. Kinda like a Bentley dealer doesn't really care what the Dodge dealer is doing - they aren't selling to the same client.

 

[27RMT0N]

Mechanizing has been my way of doing more work and making more by exploiting equipment and not people. Making a bunch of money off someone else’s back never sat right in my heart.

I feel like it is certainly possible to pay employees a non exploitative wage that is good for both parties...

 

[Matias]

I feel like it is certainly possible to pay employees a non exploitative wage that is good for both parties...

I have seen the vast majority pay barely if at all livable wages, but I have seen guys pay well, and have been the guy paying well too. It's amazing how many good things are possible, but not happening enough.

 

[27RMT0N]

My goal as a person and a business is to afford to live my life without money worries (not to get rich), and pay my employees a good wage that is better than any of the other businesses in the area. Why? Because I'm not a money hungry ghoul, and I want to work with good people who do good work, and wake up looking forward to the day where we accomplishing something as a team and have fun doing it.

 

[oceans]

I feel like it is certainly possible to pay employees a non exploitative wage that is good for both parties...

I think you’re right. I’ve just been doing it with sub-contractors rather than direct employees.

 

[oceans]

We are a supplement for our primary groundie, as he and his wife own a working farm. I just did the math, and if he was with us all working days of the year he would be a pine needle below six figures.

 

[macrocarpa]

That's cool! I've thought about growing some trees just because I cannot always find some of what I'm looking for...but I'm not ready to jump in head first. It's hard to start "nursery light" because I can't buy liner stock in small quantities - like 10 of these and 10 of those, etc...

Getting a well drill in the next couple of weeks may help make it easier to spend money on trees know I can keep them alive.

My least favorite part of offering planting as a service is locating and purchasing the trees from the nursery. If I had the space and could grow my own trees, I think it would be easy to sell them to customers because for the most part customers depend on us to tell them what species would work best for the space. In my head, it would just simplify and make offering tree planting so much more enjoyable. And if I had the trees it would force me to be always looking for opportunities to offer planting instead of waiting for the customer to come up with the idea on their own.

No worries about exposed root flares, central leaders & good branch spacing. No looking at the constantly changing nursery availability, no going to the nursery and being in a hurry to attempt to pick out quality trees…..

I have found customers really don’t expect a huge tree either. I used to plant 2-3” inch caliper, but have been planting 1.25-1.75” and the reaction from the customer has been no different.

Couple evergreen options, couple small to medium size tree options, couple shade tree options.

So simple in my mind

 

[oceans]

Or knowledge that nobody else has.

Or both knowledge and equipment!

 

[evo]

In my mind, and employee should be adding gross value over their pay. The question is how much? X2-x3? Or is x0.25 sufficient?

By far I’m not trying to dehumanize, but this is what we expect of our equipment. A chipper needs to increase production at a rate it pays for its self, maintenance, and replacement when it wears out.. all while making a profit for the company.

In some regards an employee is the same thing, expect for the rare cases the climber is working a no haul and just needs someone on the ground to untangle ropes and swap saws.

 

[Matias]

The way I see it, the owner should obviously be paid at a higher rate than the employees, as they have additional responsibilities., but after everyone gets their base pay rate, any profit made over that should be shared in proportion to each person's base pay. After all, the onwer didn't increase profitability alone- everyone in the company generated that profit together. If the owner keeps all the profit, that is exploitative.

As for the times when the business fails to meet that base rate for everyone, there are many reasons why that might happen, and those reasons should dictate how the payouts work in those instances. I have underbid jobs and had to pay my helper extra for the extra day, so I made less money and they made more. I have had helpers who were really slow, and I didn't pay them extra for the additional hours, and then I didn't hire them again. I love it when I can arrange pay to be based on work completed, but that doesn't always work. That is how loggers get paid though- by the board foot.

If a worker isn't holding up their end, they get fired. If you fail to run your business in a way that generates enough revenue to meet your base pay needs, that is on you, and that is why the owner makes more than the employees. One may always choose to cash out the business and becaome someone elses employee, but if one's leadership helps bring in extra money, one must remember that it is not ONLY their leadership that brought in the extra money, it was also the work provided by the employees, and they should reap those rewards as well, though obviously in proportion to their role in the company.

Am I missing something? Bear in mind that I also agree that as things are, if an employee doesn't like the amount they are getting paid, they can go and find a better deal, or try to start their own business. I don't think anyone is entitled to a particular job per se. I also believe that we are at a point where our society can afford a UBI.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I might start killing it in one more year from now when all my loams are squared. A lot came back to back, but being leveraged is ok if you can keep all the equipment in good shape and continue to use it after it’s paid off.

That said, maybe think outside the box and buy something that nobody else really has that gives you a slight niche. The crane has been great for a number of reasons in that vein.

The way I see it, the owner should obviously be paid at a higher rate than the employees, as they have additional responsibilities., but after everyone gets their base pay rate, any profit made over that should be shared in proportion to each person's base pay. After all, the onwer didn't increase profitability alone- everyone in the company generated that profit together. If the owner keeps all the profit, that is exploitative.

As for the times when the business fails to meet that base rate for everyone, there are many reasons why that might happen, and those reasons should dictate how the payouts work in those instances. I have underbid jobs and had to pay my helper extra for the extra day, so I made less money and they made more. I have had helpers who were really slow, and I didn't pay them extra for the additional hours, and then I didn't hire them again. I love it when I can arrange pay to be based on work completed, but that doesn't always work. That is how loggers get paid though- by the board foot.

If a worker isn't holding up their end, they get fired. If you fail to run your business in a way that generates enough revenue to meet your base pay needs, that is on you, and that is why the owner makes more than the employees. One may always choose to cash out the business and becaome someone elses employee, but if one's leadership helps bring in extra money, one must remember that it is not ONLY their leadership that brought in the extra money, it was also the work provided by the employees, and they should reap those rewards as well, though obviously in proportion to their role in the company.

Am I missing something? Bear in mind that I also agree that as things are, if an employee doesn't like the amount they are getting paid, they can go and find a better deal, or try to start their own business. I don't think anyone is entitled to a particular job per se. I also believe that we are at a point where our society can afford a UBI.

There is an expectation that whoever has a financial investment in the company get a return on that money. Value of a days work isn’t based only on the work done each day

Value gets hard to define

 

[Muggs]

A business has to get at least 2X the value of what it pays an employee. Anything less is unsustainable in the long term, entropy being what it is. Every single piece of equipment is deteriorating slowly and will have to be replaced eventually. If you're only in business to make payroll then there's no long-term plan for repairs, upgrades, replacement, or anything else.