Tree removal dilemma?

It was different. They have had some negative feelings about our company (line-clearance companies) because we do some work and aren't union. I expected some negativity.

When they showed up on day 1, I asked if they were waiting for the power co. to be turned off, and they said no, they didn't need it and that they do this stuff everyday. I told them to let us know how we can help and for them to do their thing and we'll stay outta their way.

The man in charge (and running 1 bucket) was pretty difficult to talk to. He was no doubt a "tough guy". I let him be tough and went about my business. Later that day, he accepted a pulley and larger rigging line from my guys to help them finish the tree. They never did finish it and as the day went on, he lost his temper. I told my guys to stay out from under him. He got a little reckless. He ended up leaving the other bucket operator to finish the tree by himself. My guys heard him on the phone complaining about how he was in the bucket ALL DAY with no relief operator!

The other guys came back for day 2, but the complainer refused. The rest of the guys made fun of him. Too much. :0)

On day 2, I offered the guys an axe and some wedges to help them slide the wood off of the stick when I saw them struggling. At the end, they said thanks for the help and how easy life would be if they were sent out with the right tools. Good point. They also changed their story and said that they DON'T do this everyday (removals that is), that's why they didn't even have a big enough saw for the job.

It was a tough situation, but I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad that none of those guys were hurt either. Sure they were carless by my account, but they did the job and probably will do so for the rest of their careers. I hope they all stay safe-after all they're tree guys!
 
Mark,
Again, I find your comments disheartening and discouraging when taken in the context of our industry as a whole.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
It was a tough situation, but I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad that none of those guys were hurt either. Sure they were careless by my account, but they did the job and probably will do so for the rest of their careers. I hope they all stay safe-after all they're tree guys!

[/ QUOTE ] Absolutely amazing. But I can relate. I've become quite jaded also. As I have gotten safer and more competent in my career as a climbing arborist, I worry less and less about the hordes of incompetents trying to do this work, injuring and killing themselves and making my insurance amongst the highest in the country.

Sure, let's make MORE laws that only the competent will obey and no one will enforce. This will further drive out the experienced arborists, leaving even more work to be attempted by incompetents.

An eye-opening thread for sure, Mark. Makes me sad to be an arborist. The more I learn, the less I want to be associated with this industry. Buncha hacks, and the ones who know better just ignore all the hacks.
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
An eye-opening thread for sure, Mark. Makes me sad to be an arborist. The more I learn, the less I want to be associated with this industry. Buncha hacks, and the ones who know better just ignore all the hacks

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't ignore them. I offered to help how ever they would let me. When the owner of the electric lines said that they were clearing the proximity, it was no longer my choice of what to do. These guys were said to be responsible enough to handle the task. Who am I to say anything about that? All I could do is help with what they would let me. Once they did their thing, I took over and did mine.

What would you have done? Have you been in this (or a similar situation) before? If so, what did you do?
 
Mark, It's been awhile. I know first hand what you were dealing with. I started out working for the orange company when I was 18. I got pretty good at it. I can remember one instance where I sent up to take down a pin oak as you described. It too grew up between a two phase 13.2kv. The line was "weather proofed" I was on a climbing crew at the time and no bucket was available. I told my forman I thought the line should be shut down. His answer was if I wanted to be a top rate someday this is what I had to be able to do. So climbed the tree up through the two phase brushing it out as carefully as I could. I elevated it up a good ways about the lines.Then standing between the phases scared out of mind I notched the whole top out jumping it over the line. Not the smartest thing to do but I was young and proving myself.

I now use a bit more caution. We get our fair share of those jobs now. I usually get sent out with bucket and plenty of time on the job. Good knowledge of how electricity works and some basic removal techniques go a long way. Respect the lines and you'll be fine. If ever in this situation I would love to help out. I am always available on Saturdays.
 
Did anyone consider inviting them to read this thread? Especially considering pictures are posted of them. Perhaps they would be interested in learning safer methods.

Mike
 
Here is an article titled; "An Open Letter to The Green-Industry." It is published in the February, 2004 issue of SCA TODAY-an affiliate organization of the I.S.A. called the Society of Commercial Arboriculture.
Many of you are reading this letter because you are members of the Utility Arborist Association(UAA), and you are reading the "President's Message". Many more of you, however, are reading as members of the Society of Commercial Arboriculture(SCA) or The Society of Municipal Arborists(SMA)(I know, it should be Municipal Arboriculture), in your respective publications. Thank you, blah, blah, blah, for allowing me to share my thoughts with you today.

In the game of chess there is a saying: "don't surround yourself with yourself." Yet in the arboriculture community, we tend to cling to our own. Look around the next time you attend a conference. As the sessions break for lunch and the auditorium empties, clusters begin to form. A group of municipal arborists over here, a group of commercial arborists over there, and a group of utility arborists walking and talking together.

Based on personal experience, I know that sometimes one of the groups may make disparaging comments about one of the other groups. And-although I may be a bit sensitive to this-I think that more often than not, the utility arborists are getting the short end of the stick.

Before I recount the boring details of one experience, maybe a little philosophical discussion is in order. The Topic: "What is an arborist?"

An arborist works on trees and gets paid for it. Sorry folks, but that's about it. I know we are all very proud and committed to our profession, but the fact is, there are many who enter our ranks by virtue of picking up a chainsaw. Now a "Certified " Arborist, tree worker or utility specialist is a different animal entirely. When you take away the "certified", all you have is "arborist"...and although there are some very good ones who are not certified for one reason or another, there are also some notoriously bad ones.

Which brings me back to those previously disparaging comments. A particular conference session was over, and I found myself at the front of the auditorium asking the speaker a question. Another audience member, who also came to ask the speaker a question, made quite an impression. I don't remember his name, but he was commercial arborist from New York state.

As the three of us talked, it wasn't long before the commercial arborist began a diatribe on the evils of utility arborists. "They're butchers, they're uneducated, half of them don't even speak english", he said "As if New Yorkers speak Engish," I thought. I listened without divulging my loyalties. I listened because I thought I might learn something new. Sadly, it was the same song, different singer.

The characterization was sad because it was so misinformed. The Utility Arborist Association has been around since 1974.There are more than 1,600 members, making it the largest professional affiliation of ISA and the second largest affiliation overall, second only to the Western Chapter. Of the more than 16,000 ISA Certified Arborists in the world, many work for utility companies or there contracters. I don't know exactly how many utility arborists rank amongst the certified. I know that at least 500 are certified because there are nearly that many certified utility specialists, and arborist certification is a prerequesite. I also know that there are approximately 100 utility companies who have earned The National Arbor Day Foundation's "Tree Line USA" award.

Now I know that my utility brethren and I have made an unfair comment or two about our industry colleages..."
I just can't believe those morons planted 500 sycamores under our line." or "That idiot demands that we top the trees under the power line just like his arborist does to the rest of his trees." The difference is that we typically reference an individual circumstance rather than paint a broad characterization of the discipline.

Utility arborists accept the premise that most commercial arborists are skilled professionals, and that the tree-toppers are the exception to the rule. We also accept that most municipal arborists work to ensure healthy, sustainable urban forests.

Today, I am asking the reader to accept what I know to be a fact. Most utility arborists are making the best of a bad situation-the wrong tree in the wrong place. The typical utility arborist follows ANSI A-300 and Z133.1 standards. We use Shigo-method directional pruning to accomplish our goals of delivering safe, reliable electric service, while preserving tree health and complying with a variety of laws and regulations. We train our employees and encourage them to become certified. We also approach safety with a determination driven by the fact that utility tree workers face the daily threat of electrocution (actually, all tree workers face this threat, but I'm not sure they all recognize the danger as acutely as the utility worker).

Ultimately, we all choose who we will accpt as one of our own. Arborists of different disciplines are working together around the globe to preserve historic trees, celebrate Arbor Day, teach kids about trees, mitigate hazards, and maintain a community heritage. Utility arborists are a huge part of this endeavor. Annually, utility arborists prune, remove, and install millions of trees at a cost of billions of dollars. Most are doing the job correctly, but some are not. If you are a muncipal or commercial arborist frustrated by the performance of your local utility, consider introducing them to the UAA. Have them check us out at http://www.utilityarborist.org

We want what you want.

(authors' name not disclosed for protection unless Tom or Mark edit this post, delete this comment, and reveal the authors' name)

President

Utlity Arborist Associaton

retyped here by

Joe

p.s. I have, with this post, officially broken the rules for posting at this board.
 
Sorry, but that letter is the typical crap written by the typical desk jockey telling everybody how advanced his profession is. Every time a utility arborist finds his way online to one of the arborist forums, we hear about how they climb on 3 strand rope and ratty saddles because the companies don't want to spend any money on decent gear.

Sorry, but the effluent flowing from the president of the UAA doesn't jive with the real world.
 
...while some outsider empathizes with the line clearance labor force, dragging them down further by agreeing they work in an unacceptable environment along with outdated gear. They offer no solutions to help them improve their work situation, their training, or their attitude towards their job because they can't do it.

I've seen line clearance people do exactly as described in the letter written by the UAA president. They were the bad asses of their world.

The open letter shows an organization that the line clearance people like Mark encountered can learn through to help them see things from an improved perspective. They can either waist their money on it, like some people would have them think, or improve their work ethics by applying the information they get from an organization like the UAA.

Stand alone and continue griping, fools will eventually follow.

Joe
 
That letter brings up some memories I have about when we did a lot of clearance work. Power outages and tree clearance are the power co.'s largest expenses after payroll. They hate trees! Well, problem trees anyway.

I remember doing work through the mountainous (if you can call it that) area of NW NJ where the transmission line went behind some wooded properties. One gentleman came out and watched us work and then told us that we couldn't cut his trees. The utility co. supervisor told us to keep going and ignore him - "It's the law".

The gentleman continued to argue and lose his temper. I later came down and he looked at me and said "tree whore" and walked away. Funny, but it mad me mad. He didn't know anything about me yet he insulted all of us. He of course called us hacks too.

Like the letter did point out, I felt like I was doing the best I could given the situation and the history of these trees. I remember getting up into the tops of some trees and starting to curse under my breath about what was done that tree in the past. Sun scald to the point of 50% decay on the top sides of the crown. Dog ears, nubs, rips, tears and uncontroled knicks in the trunk everywhere. This was poor arboriculture by any standard. It wasn't the way it had to be.

We ended up putting as many of these trees out of their misory when we were given the approval. The others, well we did what we felt was the right compromise. Some people liked how we treated them and their trees and others complained. I think most complained simply because they didn't have a choice in the matter and that mad us the bad guys. But, when Oprah won't come on or the microwave wouldn't heat the pot pie, they were on the phone in a heartbeat asking the power co. why?

It not an easy situation for anyone involved. The power co. wants X feet of clearance regardless. The forester wants to keep his job so he inspects every tree for X feet of clearance. The trimmer wnats to keep his job so he does what is asked of him and so on. Until lines go underground or people stop planting or allowing trees to grow in proximity, the story will repeat itself.

Rock, I agree that there are a lot of excuses. I hate hearing how "my boss won't buy me a better rope...". If this is your job, you should own your own gear, at least the minimum requirements. Would a carpenter not own a tool belt or hammer? Come on, spend a couple of hundred and improve your own situation. I certainly would and do.
 
Some of the best climbers I've known are in/have been in the UROW line of work. I've met a few that blow me a way how they can move around on tall whippy trees.

We notice the hacks fore what they have done. Lately I've been looking at all UROW work and have been impressed with what has been done. Yes there is the occasionall butchery and pointless gaff work, but is is the exception.

Mostly I wonder why they did not just take the darned thing down!
 
Thanks for sharing that letter and discussing the topic

in reguards to </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
When you take away the "certified", all you have is "arborist"...and although there are some very good ones who are not certified for one reason or another, there are also some notoriously bad ones.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is fair to also note that there are some Certified Arborists that are notoriously bad.

I am not ready to give up on arboriculture or all "hacks".

In Austin I found that most "Hacks" didn't realize what they were doing was dangerous or harmful. Just ignorant. If we turn our backs, I think we are just part of the problem.

Stay safe
 
I remember a forester from PA who came to NJ and spoke at an educational session put on by the utility co. we work for who said, "in PA the utility work is above standard and the comercial and residential sector was below, but in NJ it was the opposite". I would have to agree (in NJ) with his account from what I encountered.

From what I've seen and been told, many line clearance co.s put rookies into the bucket and just let them go. They don't know an Ilex opaca from an Acer sacharinum. They are told to get 8' from the primary and that's about it. Not enough.

This type of "give it a try" arboriculture is unacceptable. That is what the foresters in NJ were trying to get rid of when they hosted that session. They brought in speakers to embarass the workers into better workmanship and try to get them thinking more. It didn't really work too well. It's not over yet though.
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Mostly I wonder why they did not just take the darned thing down!

[/ QUOTE ]
Our company policy is we must have written permission from the property owner. It also has to appear cost effective to the utility forester. Believe me, we try.

Mike
 
Mike: are you a line clearance tree trimmer? If yes, do you see in the field what's being discussed in this thread? Were you aware of the UAA before it was mentioned here? Have you needed to go outside of your company for any type of training, or to buy gear your company didn't provide? I have heard most companies do provide a good tailgate safety program about electricity and electrical hazards.

Thanks in advance for answering these questions if you are into line clearance. If I read your reply incorrectly and you're not line clearance personnel, would some1 else answer the questions?

Mark: when it comes down to it, those guys that worked to remove those trees weren't up to the job. Crew moral gets drug down in these situations and when every1 complains, insiders and outsiders, a very bad picture gets painted. In those pics along with your comments about what you witnessed, change looks bleak for the guys who might want change. I think we all know we don't need to do removals every day to be good at doing removals. Exposure to good rigging techniques is what would make the difference. I figure guys who work the power lines should be better at rigging limbs than us since they face overhangs and other situations we don't encounter daily.

It's too bad you couldn't show a crew that was more successful at removing those trees. I'd rather be humbled by superb rigging than what you witnessed.

As for seeing better work from line clearance contractors, I've seen good work from them.

Joe
 
I think some of the guys I spoke with do want to learn more and probably will. However, the overall feeling of the crew was more of one like "we got the job done and everyone's happy ", rather than "that was hard and I'd like to improve before I have to do that again". The one thing I don't agree with is that whole "they won't but me a wedge" type of thinking. If it helps you perform these tasks a lot easier, and the super won't pay, then I say buy it yourself and show the super how good of an idea it was. I'm talking about relatively small purchases here.

I understand what Mike is saying too. We also had to "sell" the removals to the property owner and the forester. I found that many would get approved, but there were a bunch that said no. Either "that's the only tree/shade in my yard" or "it still provides screening from the road" or some other understandable reason. When we told them how they were just allowing the tree to be tortured until it would finally die, they usually agreed.

When that many people are part of the process, it can't always be easy and smooth.
 
Hi Joe. Yes I do line clearance. I see what Mark is talking about very often.

I wasn't aware of the UAA. I'm not sure how I'd have missed a link to them. Really appreciate the article you posted though and will look into it more.

Our annual safety meetings are pretty thorough about electrical hazards but employee turnover makes it almost impossible to keep up with. Our company sends a few foreman to ACRT every year but I just came back for them little over a year ago and haven't gone yet.

I use company rope after mine wore out but my own saddle, spikes, biners, loop runners, whoopies, loopies, blocks, pulleys, portawrap and 9/16 stable braid. Oh yeah, bought a pantin and handled ascenders too. A lot of money out of my pocket that could be stolen at any time considering some of the areas we are required to work. I can't really blame anyone for not buying their own.

I learned a great deal from AS and TB and the books recommended from them including The Tree Climbers Companion, The Art and Science of Practical Rigging, Professional Timber Falling, Modern Arboriculture and of course The Fundamentals of General Tree Work. I think Jerry B. has a lot more knowledge to share once the questions were started.

Not having the right equipment I can see both sides but I see no excuse for not having the books.

I hope I've helped some. I could go on for hours about the problems but would rather spend the time on some solutions.

Mike
 
Mike: thanks for the reply. What you have said is enough for me. I'm not involved in line clearance as I'm sure you are aware. I felt that article may be worth more to some1 other than critics. It will be people like yourself who make the difference in that part of the industry. Even if you stick around for only a few years, you may influence a few of the people who are going to be around longer to improve themselves by following your example. I'm sure the UAA would like to pick up a few more members. They are a professional organization that can help it's members through the dissemination of information about line clearance issues. If you pursue the line clearance specialist program, or become a member of the UAA, or you decide not to become a UAA member, check back in and let others know what you've done. Talk a little about your likes and dislikes about membership. Tell about how you've improved or if you found it wasn't helpful. Your input can show others in the industry whether what's being offered works. Others who haven't been where you've been can make life a little better for themselves with your example as a guide. If you don't pursue the UAA, continue to show people where you got help.

I've heard ACRT has a decent program that's worth attending. I've thought pretty seriously of going through them for more training myself. I didn't pursue it. I don't feel the need since I've been around for quite some time. Again, thanks for replying.

Joe
 
What I would do is probably what most are thinking. If the hot lines are 12" away. I'm asuming from what I read you are working close to a 3 phase lines. Techinally you're way with in your distance of 3 feet. I'd tie in at the tip top and go to the lowest limb on the side towards the line an start blocking my limbs in sections. If you've got over hangers jump those puppies across the lines. Good luck and I hope this helps you out. <font color="blue"> </font color>
 
Great thread Mark, thanks!
I imagine I'm kinda like you in that we've both been doing this for a long enough time, that anytime another crew is working around us we cringe at the unsafe things they do.
Our company always calls the ROW guys to do any work around power lines for us, it's free. They send out a crew of young guys with little training or experience, and fewer tools than an average homeowner.
If possible, I try not to be there while they work, it's too scary! I'd rather dig through a huge cris cross pile of brush covered with firewood, than watch them "work".
 
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