Tied into the top

Should a climber remained tied into the the piece he's cutting while making a face notch if the situ

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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    0
M

Matt_Grailich

Location
CT
I removed a pin oak with a severe lean to it. Recalling what they taught me at ArborMaster, I stayed tied into the top as I made my face notch and kerf cuts. According to the instructors there, if the situation calls for it and it's safer and easier to make the face cut, then do so. Anyway, after the piece was faced up, I removed my line and friction saver without climbing back up to retrieve them. I then used the friction saver prussik for my climbing line and my lanyard to be tied in twice, tied the piece off and made the cut without difficulty. That makes me wonder: How many of you guys stay tied in while facing up a top and how many remove their lines before making the face notch? I'm interested to know.
 
Matt, I always make it a point to make sure I have NOT left my rope tied into the top. Waiting until after you have made the face cut is unnecessary, and in my opinion begging for an accident (especially if the tree has a lean).you can do just as good a job starting and finishing your face cut tied in at the level of your work.(matt, the buzzboard also has a poll feature if you want to get larger response of yes/no opinions.)
 
I've done it a few times. Mostly on very fat trunks with enough lean to where it is uncomfortable and troublesome to make a proper notch with a large saw. If at all possible, I prefer removing my life support rope from the top of the tree BEFORE I start to cut the top out. Arbormaster is correct, though. It is an option to use when other alternatives are not as safe. It is not something I would reccommend to anyone who isn't absolutely perfect with their notches, though. I tend to make shallow notches when using this method.
 
As a pretty firm rule I don't recommend it. Especially in old trees that exhibit evidence of rot and defect. There are exceptions others may note. In young trees, of known sound structure, the support of the climbline would offer more lattiude for work positioning when facing (Notching) the low side of a lean.

With all said, I recall climbing up and cutting out the very tip top of a red alder. The tree leaned heavily towards the 12KV and was being removed. I tied-in and rappelled about twenty, or so, feet to cut out a larger section. After facing up the work I looked up! Luckly to notice "I was still tied into the piece I was about ready to trip off"!! Yikes

It immediatly brought to mind a tale told to me by a good fellow named Jim Ruddel. A man of fifty years experience. Only he didn't pull out his climbline. I recall tales of other similiar experiences from climbers over the years. I was lucky I guess, but even before that I always made it a habit to look up before cutting.
 
I have to disagree, Kevin. Trees ARE predictable. If they weren't, we would all still be using the 'cut and hope' method that we see homeowners and scabs using regularly. Many factors must be taken into account on every cut. Species, vigor, decay or lack thereof, type of notch, etc. etc. etc. I guess that is what scares me the most about offering advice in a forum like this. You never know when a rookie will take what you write as a guaranteed rule rather than an option depending on other circumstances.
But trees ARE predictable. That is how we make our living. Those of us who have been lucky enough to observe and learn how trees react to different forces are better suited to predict how a tree will react in a given scenario.
 
To each his own.
When you do everything right bad things can still happen.
Maybe not on a regular basis but it only takes one bad spill and I`m not willing to take the risk.
 
Ive stayed tied in to the top while putting a lower face in many times. Of course, this procedure calls for hyper awareness.

This is my procedure:

While I'm wrecking out the top, I pay attention to the trunk if I think that I might do a top tie in face cut. Lean, species, decay are all things that I look for.
After cutting away my tie in point TIP I set up my adjustable false crotch and lower to the face.
Position myself and lanyard in, if the tree is small, I use both ends of my lanyard.
Double check all TIPs by touching the rope termination on my saddle and following the rope/lanyard with my finger.
Plan my face cut.
Now I cut the face.
If I have to change position, I do a re-check.
After cutting the face I clip the saw and re-set my rope TIP lower on the spar.
Repeat as needed.

By following the touch and finger trace check I'm sure to not cut myself out of the top.

This is definetly a procedure that requires high attention but the pay off is that I don't have to spend more time on my spikes. I'd rather be supported by my saddle.

Tom
 
I mill a lot of so called healthy trees and it`s amazing what you find in some of them.
I would compare it to walking on ice, you just never know... for sure.
 
Matt,

I thought that if I deleted one of your tests, it would go away and tidy up the thread. Apparently not.

Sorry,

Tom

Stating that this technique could be used without qualifications isn't what I had in mind. If the wood is sound, then why not? I've looked at wood strength literature before and found that wood is incredibly strong. I know that this isn't apples to apples but think of how strong a 4x4 post is. How much of a load would you have to apply to get the post to break? I think we could tie into a pretty tall post without worrying about it breaking off. This is especially true since we are loading the wood in compression. That is where wood is the strongest I think.

Tom
 
not to nitpick, but this question shows that you are an arborist and not a pollster. The question is akin to "Should the UN attack Saddam Hussein if they can be sure it would stop his efforts to get nuclear weapons?" Of course they should, but how do they verify such a thing?

Should a climber avoid tying into a tree that is not strong enough to hold him? Should a rope be retired if it is degraded to the point of being unsafe? The shoulds are easy, it's the ifs that are hard.

k
 
Tom, you bring up a good point. However, I don't personally reamian tied into the top because of a wood strength issue,(I've never had a top or tree go with just a face cut)rather, I remove myself from the top in order to take one less chance of human error out of the equation. One of my buddies gave me a pretty vivid account of what happens when you dump a top with your rope still in it. A previous boss of his did just such a thing. the rusulting force stretched, then snapped the D rings on his belt. obviously, the guys body didn't do so well, he lived, but with a broken back, and some severe internal injuries (I'm not sure if these were from the initial force of being jerked from the tree or from the resulting fall). I'm sure this wouldn't happen to someone that wasn't in such a hurry, from the sounds of it , the guy was an accident waiting to happen. However, i guess my question would have to be; is the convenience of leaving a your rope in the top worth the added chance of you possibly hurting yourself?
 
Jason,

Please don't take this in any argumentative or critical way. I'd like you to think about making decisions in a different manor.

Making the decision to use a technique on the results that another person had with the technique could take a lot of good skills off the table for you. Many of us lost a good friend who cut the top out of a tree but we will still use the technique. I'm sure we all make the decision differently now than two years ago though.

People die from _______________ [fill in the blank], but we all continue _______________. Just a different way to think.

Be careful!

Tom
 
Anyone that cuts a tree takes a calculated risk in my opinion.
Nothing is for certain, you do what you know is right and let the pieces fall where they may.
Even the top medical surgeon experiences what they refer to as complications.
 
There are many occasions in tree work that call for a more pragmatic approach to a difficult situation than blindly following someones dogma. e.g. Prefering not to tie into a branch with a lanyard because it could be more dangerous is one, and using a top handled chainsaw one handed at the extremeties of some branches may be another.

I use the technique in question on occasion, but not as the norm. I also covered it in the top handled research project, giving perameters for safe use.

One thing nobody has mentioned is the use of ground workers as an additional fail safe: If I decide to use the technique for removing a section, I stop the work and get everyones attention. I explain what I am about to do and insist they watch to make sure I don't continue with the back cut before pulling down my line. If it looks like I am, they just blast on their whistles.

I have seen one friend have a lucky escape with this technique, and another one died. But then I've seen many accidents with run of the mill techniques - it just means increased risks require increased controls - extra eyes are a good one.

This is an advanced technique that requires experience and a steady approach. Ground workers should always be trained to look out for the climber. Everyone trains the climber, but who properly trains their ground workers?!
 
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