Tie-in fail

I have started using a monocular after having too many times reached my tip and said "WOW, I climbed on that!" This part of the story should be said "He told me he thought the limb was fairly vertical." We should KNOW what direction the limb is going. There is a big difference in learning SRT, been hybrid SRT/DdRT for five years. It is better to have many limbs as possible under the main tie in for back up, hard to do every time. Hope he recovers and gets back up, climb safe.
 
Tail was base tied. I talked to him some this evening. He did load test it some before climbing. He then went straight up solely SRT, not using safety. About 3/4 way up he felt something wasn't right. Unfortunately it failed as he was trying to remedy it.

I'm sure there are many things he would do differently. Doctors are saying 3-6 months.

"Kiss My Axe"
Associate degree in forestry from PSU Mont Alto
Certified Arborist
Owner/operator of Climb High Tree Service established in 2002
www.climbhightree.com
https://m.facebook.com/ClimbHighTreeService
https://www.youtube.com/user/climbhightree
https://www.youtube.com/user/2treekiller2
 
Hoping for a full and timely recovery for your colleague climbhightree....

Moving an anchor point up higher is such an easy thing to do in both DdRT and SRT and yet we still go for the highest possible branch union more times than not.....I am just as guilty of this practice as anyone over the years... Not anymore.. My new "rule of thumb" is to determine the branch union where I would like to be anchored to work the tree and aim for at least one branch below it for access.... With luck, every time I move the anchor to the preferred spot I will be pleased with the initial assessment, if not... I will be damned glad I didn't ascend on it....

Good food for thought here: http://www.treemagineers.com/blog/flogging-a-dead-horse/
 
JeffGu said:
I'm paranoid, maybe, but I have patience and I try not to get into a situation where I feel pressured or rushed. Incidents like this is why.
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Well said. I think feeling pressure to perform could easily lead to this. I'm not a pro arb, and I'm not saying this gentleman was feeling any pressure, but I have to say I've run into plenty of folks in my life that don't think twice about making people feel pressured to perform. Many actually prefer it that way. I don't think I'd last long around someone who wanted to make me feel pressure when I'm hanging my butt 90 feet in the air. This might be the best argument for being your own boss as a climber.

I'm not trying to say that you do this, climbhightree. I know he'll naturally be more cautious in the future, but it would not hurt to emphasize the idea that you don't want him to feel rushed or pressured to the point of compromising his safety.

Along the lines of taking too long to do stuff (which I freely admit I do) this is one more argument for DSRT. Assuming he'd had two ropes, and had his slack tended well on both, each of his tie-in points might only be feeling half of his weight. So in addition to the redundancy and work positioning advantages that DSRT offers, it puts you back nearly to the levels of force on your tie-in points that DdRT offers.

Tim
 
scary stuff, hope he has a quick recovery.
this was probably a pretty scary experience for you to share with him, so i hope this thread doesn't turn into a fired up SRT vs DdRT safety debate. I have made poor TIP choices in both climbing styles and fortunately had a more forgiving learning experience each time.
 
Boomslang said:
Could you please explain what you mean by "not using safety". I've seen you mention it a couple of times but don't understand what you're saying. Do you mean he was being unsafe while ascending?
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Safety lanyard.

He wasn't going up the trunk of the tree constantly flipping his safety lanyard up. I'm not saying he should have been, was just saying how he was climbing up the tree.

"Kiss My Axe"
Associate degree in forestry from PSU Mont Alto
Certified Arborist
Owner/operator of Climb High Tree Service established in 2002
www.climbhightree.com
https://m.facebook.com/ClimbHighTreeService
https://www.youtube.com/user/climbhightree
https://www.youtube.com/user/2treekiller2
 
i climb canopy anchors every time pretty much cause im nervous of how things get loaded up on base anchors, and ive stroked me anchor side with a chainsaw before, never again unless not making many cuts, specifically none on the base of the tree. tough to remember that anchor leg exists when i was first changed climbing from DdRT.
we all will tie into sometimes reasonable small stuff, we gotta be sure to consider how we will load our chosen TIP. man, you hate to hear this stuff happen to people tho.
 
CutHighnLetFly said:
scary stuff, hope he has a quick recovery.
this was probably a pretty scary experience for you to share with him, so i hope this thread doesn't turn into a fired up SRT vs DdRT safety debate. I have made poor TIP choices in both climbing styles and fortunately had a more forgiving learning experience each time.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I accidentally tied in to scary stuff before Ddrt.

But one has to admit that a base tie srt exerts a lot more weigh on whatever you are tied into. He weighs 250lbs, so roughly add another 50 for gear...he was putting 600 lbs on that limb. In a Ddrt system that limb probably would have held...and most likely he would have been going up the trunk of the tree. And therefore using his safety lanyard more.

I'm not saying SRT is unsafe, just saying there is a lot more precautions involved.

"Kiss My Axe"
Associate degree in forestry from PSU Mont Alto
Certified Arborist
Owner/operator of Climb High Tree Service established in 2002
www.climbhightree.com
https://m.facebook.com/ClimbHighTreeService
https://www.youtube.com/user/climbhightree
https://www.youtube.com/user/2treekiller2
 
i agree with you, there are some totally different precautions to be considering than ddrt, i suppose maybe more precautions. some people will argue that, which i understand and respect the opinions ive heard, but i do agree with you.
like i said, thats why, for me, i feel safer on a canopy anchor.
 
CutHighnLetFly said:
i feel safer on a canopy anchor.
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Me too. Between the nearly doubled force on the TIP, and the potential for accidental cutting of the basal tie, canopy seems safer to me. Except when a rescue is needed. But then again, no need to set that up if the ground crew isn't trained for it.

And yeah, DdRT probably is safer, but SRT is so fast and easy to ascend to the top of a tall tree. It's kinda like walking vs. flying. Walking is safer, but I'm taking my chances in the jumbo jet to New York. Imagine how the body would feel after the walking trip vs. the flying trip. Another relevant correlation I think.

Anyway, point is, with any action there is an equal and opposite reaction. With greater heights and speeds comes greater potential for damage. Sorry again for the bad break, and I hope he heals up good and quickly. I think the best way to honor him is to learn from the experience and lets make sure we have some backup branches in place on our SRT climbs.
 
I have to say I don't agree with the canopy vs base tie discussion here.
At least with a base tie, the limb is loaded in compression and often stronger because of it, as opposed to the shearing force (pulling on the branch out of line with the rest of the stem) involved in canopy anchor or Ddrt. If he weighs 300 geared up, then I strongly doubt that limb would have held up Ddrt. Conjecture of course.
I'm very conservative on ash TIPs and would have taken that slightly lower main union there and been quite comfortable with a base tie. (Always aware of anchor leg).
 
It's like deja vu all over again. same scenario as mine. Tied out from the branch union on what seems to be a vertical limb, base anchored SRT and that uh oh moment.

We do have to have at least a technologist's understanding of engineering in my opinion. I wonder if he is really aware of the dynamic load he placed on that above and beyond the dead load of his total body weight? I.e., with each thrust, you exert a force pushing the load over the 600 lb static load. At the point of failure, it's then multiplied by the lever effect and if he's about 4' out that means nearly a ton.

We need to improve our math and applied physics skills as we develop more sophisticated methods of access and rigging.

As for his how lucky he is, without a doubt. He really needs to be on top of the what's going on treatment wise especially with the drugs. Make sure there is a program to wean off the opiates quickly and get on some non-narcotic pain killers as early as possible.

I'm still dealing with the pain every day, some times it's worse than others. Get on with a physiotherapist that understands the nature of our work.

Hope he recovers well!
 
JontreeHI said:
At least with a base tie, the limb is loaded in compression and often stronger because of it
Click to expand...
Maybe on an upright, but I'm having a little trouble understanding how this would be the case with a horizontal limb TIP, even at the trunk union. Maybe if basal tie is on one side of tree, and fall line on the other. Other than that though, the only difference I can see with identical TIP's, base vs canopy tie, is that there is a greater force on the TIP with a base tie. I think of the particular incident we're discussing, treehumper's fall, and R4chel's. Each of them wonder if thing's would've been different with a canopy anchor, if I remember correctly. And with ground ops as hectic as they are, the possibility of cutting the rope shouldn't be overlooked, IMHO. Not saying one is better. Rescue potential is not a moot point. Just thinking out loud.
 
I think treehumper brought up the elephant in the room with this statement... "At the point of failure, it's then multiplied by the lever effect and if he's about 4' out that means nearly a ton."

Being four feet out on a limb with a cinched tie-in point seems like it would put a huge amount of pressure on the limb back where it connects at the stem. Trying to get a tie-in to settle into the crotch as deeply as possible would seem prudent, especially with a cinched tie.

I do use a base tie all of the time, so far, as I mostly work alone and so I am the only one who'd be cutting my down line, if that's the correct phrase. I like to run my rope under and over multiple branches on the way up to my primary suspension point, in an effort to have most of my weight distributed between multiple branches before my rope even makes it to my primary suspension point. I also try to set it up so that I have at least one branch within a couple of feet of my primary suspension point for the rope to catch on if my primary breaks out.

The fact that I use a dynamic rope, a base tie, and multiple branches all act together to reduce the force exerted on my highest suspension point. The fact that I use a base tie also means that if need be, I can lanyard in and try to "whip" my rope to get it to settle into a crotch a bit deeper at my primary suspension point. You would need to have some kind of retrieval line available with a cinched tie in order to accomplish the same thing.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. I hope no offense is taken by my comments. It's these discussions about what went wrong, and how things could be done differently, that help to keep us all alive.

Tim
 
This certainly is not about SRT vs. DdRT or even DSRT
It is about picking TIPs and then what system you will use to access the tree with that and the MANY ways to make it work.
Every tree is different and each one may require something different.
I think I'm going to take the ATCC climbing club thru the woods and look at MANY trees and talk about how each one could be set up, including SRT with multiple anchors or back ups etc. talk about forces, species, angles etc.
Maybe that would be a good training session in the work place so that this "engineering" the tree thing can be learned.
My laser pointer is going to get a work out.
 
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