Systems "Registry"

Re: Systems \"Registry\"

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oh, and OSHA makes rumbles about having us climb in a true DRT with TWO ropes like rope access. Does anyone want that to happen???


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That's a big NO Tom!
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

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That's a big NO Tom!

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That's why it is imperative that we maintain the unique aspect of treework. If we don't keep our own house clean OSHA will clean it and send us the bill.

If what we do looks like rope access then OSHA is likely to want to apply rope access standards and regs. Even before SRT became 'noticed' by the mainstream arbo industry OSHA looked in and was asking why we didn't follow rope access guidelines.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

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Hey x, how does the rope below you getting cut lead to a fall? Do you mean in basal tying? That's one of the reasons I don't basal tie... Apologies if I'm missing something bro....

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DBT, yes sir, basal tie.

I haven't followed all the SRT stuff for a while, is there a great way to retrieve a choked single line? Does maybe a throw line attached to the eye for choking work good to pull it down and out?

I have a rope wrench, it's nice on trees that you know you want to go through many crotches. I don't like how it can smack me in the face.

the only SRT I've been doing these past few months is with the wraptor though. Love that thing. (We had the brace modified around it after it broke on a jolt. Another thread sometime maybe.)
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Like I had said in past threads, I have tryed having a second independent line for safety. All it did was end up being more of a hazard then anything else. Then again if some of the OSHA people really want to look toward SPRAT and IRATA for how tree srt should be done, then they should notice that a sigle line is allowed when the work being done is safer that way.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

When I first started out climbing I would invariably reach for a second climbing line, but tending two ropes proved slow and counterproductive as well as very restricting. It was only in taller trees that I did this, as I did not really build up gradually in height. When I started trusting the equipment after a couple months of doing this I got rid of the second TIP and my climbing improved by leaps and bounds. Couldn't imagine using it now unless I double crotch while on a long limbwalk which is seldom necessary as I usually change my TIP to suit which is faster. Managing two ropes in a tree is very tiring and a RPITA.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Interesting stuff here for sure. I have been playing with SRT for a little bit here now myself.

Muggs, I like your simple approach to the problem of using a hitch on SRT. One thing that would worry me though is the heat build up in any SRT system. I was very surprised by the amount of heat generated in the system that I have been playing with. With your system the only heat sink is the cordage itself, be careful , if you notice glazing on your hitch cordage this is because your hitch exceeded its melting point. What would really concern me is if you descend fast and the hitch cord begins to melt then it would self lubricate and you will be unable to stop...... Find a cordage with a higher melting point just to be safe and try not to "burn" down the rope..

X How did the handle break on your Wraptor???
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

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Find a cordage with a higher melting point just to be safe and try not to "burn" down the rope..

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This is one of the issues that we are finding with using this system. There aren't any rope manufacturers making ½” heat resistant cordage. Not a big deal IMO. Most climbers using any sort of SRT climbing are aware of the problems that can arise when burning down a rope and know to watch out for.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

In our drop tests of hitches on a single line, what happens after a large drop is that the hitch and the rope will fuse together. The hitch actually becomes welded to the rope. This happens even with bee line which is overall a heat resistant cord but has strands that are not heat resistant. It takes a hell of a fall to make that happen but it is comforting to know that it doesn't burn through or let you all the way to the ground. If you were not unconscious after a vicious fall like that, it would require switching to another system to come down.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

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Find a cordage with a higher melting point just to be safe and try not to "burn" down the rope..

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This is one of the issues that we are finding with using this system. There aren't any rope manufacturers making ½” heat resistant cordage. Not a big deal IMO. Most climbers using any sort of SRT climbing are aware of the problems that can arise when burning down a rope and know to watch out for.

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What about this?

http://www.yalecordage.com/industrial-rope/kernmantles/tech-kern.html
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Interesting Ted, but how stiff is this rope when used as a friction hitch? Does it readily grab or does it kind of stay loose?

I admit .45” is pretty darn close to 1/2", just below it, and still larger than 7/16”. Have you tried splicing any of this stuff, or do you know of anyone who has used it as split-tail?
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

No Chris, I don't know how stiff or spliceable it is. I just remember seeing it at the TCIA Expo. It might be worth calling Jamie.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Nice find with the Tech-Kern cord for a split-tail option. At 11.4 mm it is just slightly larger than 7/16". I have tried Velocity as a hitch cord with 5/8" and it was binding up pretty hard. So I am definitely interested to hear from anyone who can try some Tech-Kern.

This is the extent of my experimentation so far:

Climbing lines:

Yale Bull Rigger 5/8" - this is actually my favourite so far but its not static which I really prefer.

Samson Stable Braid 5/8" - way too squishy in my hand, didn't like it at all.

Samson Static Kernmantle 5/8" - this is what I have been using for a while, very stiff, doesn't hold knots well, but it does work very well in an SRT setup, at least for now.

Would love to try KM-III but am limited by funds as any other arborist can appreciate.

Hitch Cords (1/2" except for Velocity):

I have tried Velocity, Arbormaster, Arborplex, True Blue, and Safety Blue. Have been using True Blue for a while now, definitely prefer the more pliable, soft ropes and I have always preferred 12-strand over 16-strand or double braid in general.


The whole 5/8" thing for me grew out of a few different factors, starting in 2009 after playing around with the F8-Revolver setup:

1. I had never liked DdRT, way more overcomplicated and limiting than I wanted. It was obvious to me that SRT was the future and was clearly superior.
2. I had never liked 1/2" rope, never felt big enough in my hand.
3. I hated climbing with gloves on, which a lot of guys seem to use just to help them grip 1/2" rope.
4. I loved the simplicity and elegance of just a hitch on a rope. It is just so perfect for tree work with our constant ups and downs, and I didn't want to get into mechanical doodads. The simplest solution is usually the best solution and I still believe the simplest solution is just a hitch on a rope, nothing else comes close.

Don't get me wrong, if I was a caver or a rock climber I would definitely go with the smallest diameter rope that would work for me. If I was just descending all day or just using the rope as a backup in case of a fall, I would think that 5/8" rope was way too big and just silly. If I could find a 3/8" rope that was life support rated and would work with my hardware then I would use that because it would be nice and light and get the job done.

But I really see tree work as so different from all the other rope disciplines out there. The demands that we place on our climbing systems are unique and I believe that we need to approach our systems from a unique angle, not simply copy what other rope disciplines are using. We need to embrace what makes us different from every other rope profession.

All that being said, I have no hidden agenda here, I have no product to sell. I am simply saying that for me, climbing with a 1/2" split tail on 5/8" rope in an SRT setup works, and it works really well. I am not trying to convert anyone. If someone else wants to try it, go ahead and try it. If you think its silly or that 5/8" rope weighs too much, then don't try it. That doesn't keep me from doing what I do. I am having a blast climbing with this setup and I highly recommend it but at the end of the day it is just personal preference. Also, I am not using this setup to climb 300ft monsters, most of the trees in my area are between 50-100 ft tall with spready canopies.

Get High, Climb Trees.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

And as far as a name for the system, I have been calling it H.A.F. - High Angle Forestry climbing system. No hand ascenders, no foot ascenders, no mechanical gear of any kind, just the freedom of a hitch on a rope. It is very liberating to finally climb the way I always wanted to.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Didnt seem to work for me today, tried tachyon on 3/4 rope. Lot of heat on my hands. I dont have 5/8th at the moment just 9/16th then 3/4. Hitch released but burnt my hands. Ill try again tommorrow with some other hitches
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

I was trying some 5/8 rope that Treezybrez let my use, with a piece of 5/8" nylon rope as the hitch. The rope fit through my pinto pulley (barely) and It seemed to work well enough, but I can see that heat could be an issue. The weigh of the rigging line, and my non-existent foot-locking skills were an obstacle however.
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Et. al,

I am pleased at the discourse. I enjoy the banter. Sure, some answers to questions have been manipulated, others subjugated. Some ignored.

I am but a simple tree dude. Spending a life dangling from the end of a line has shown me a few things.

1) Never think you are the baddest or the best; there is another badder or better.
2) Listen to those you despise the most; what they say is often the most revealing.
3) What you have now is everything.
4) How you do anything is how you do everything.

There are no silver bullets. What we do on a daily basis can KILL. Our only protection is good sense and systematic evaluation. Even these may lead us astray. Nonetheless, let us move forward.

I was not around when guys and gals started climbing trees with doubled rope. I cannot explain/nor answer for why they did what they did.

I can explain what I know. I can describe what I have seen. I can tell you my thoughts.

To accept anything simply because it works "now" is foolish. To dissect it, to quantify, to discuss, to dismiss is valuable.

I only encourage you to read my words and take them to heart. If not so, be it. You are your own master.

But make no mistake. I am not siting on the fence. A single point of attachment in a single line system smacks of "wrong" to me.

As a philosophical diversion allow me to leave you with these words:

The Six Mistakes of Man

I. The illusion that personal gain is made up of crushing others.

II. The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected.

III. Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it.

IV. Refusing to set aside trivial preferences.

V. Neglecting development and refinement of the mind, and not acquiring the habit of reading and study.

VI. Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.

-Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 B.C.–43 B.C.)

To better understanding,

Tony
 
Re: Systems \"Registry\"

Hi Tony,

Great post! I like the six points.

You wrote:

A single point of attachment in a single line system smacks of "wrong" to me.

This concern has always confused me.

when I look at DdRT and SRT I see a really similar configuration:

One rope--attached to the harness or another point
One hitch---attached to the harness/climber

This has worked for decades, in SRT the anchor point is changed but still, one rope/one attachment.
 

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