Stubs, Callus, and Pinus strobus

opposablethumb

opposablethumb

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Mid-Atlantic
I just finished cleaning storm damaged limbs out of a eastern white pine. (We get a lot of wind and ice damage up here on top of the mountain).

I'm pretty sure I'm the first person to climb this tree.

Up in the top there are 5-6 broken stubs, around 4-6 inches in diameter and on average about a foot long. They're all jagged on the end.

So, I geared up and climbed into the top of the canopy to take the broken stubs off thinking I'd be reducing entry points for decay. But when I got there, it was clear that these stubs were pretty dang old as there was callus tissue forming all around the whole perimeter of the jagged tears where the limbs blew/broke off.

I opted not to remove the stubs as I had read in Gilman and Shigo that removing the live tissue that is trying to close over a wound, even if it's beyond the branch collar, is not good. Better to leave it.

But Shigo and Gilman are speaking generally, and I assume that different species all have various subtleties in responding to wounds/healing/callusing, etc. Any specific knowledge as it relates to Pinus strobus, or even Western white pine (Sean?). Should stubs like this be left of taken off?
 
I probably would have removed them thinking it's six of one......and a half dozen of the other and not having to explain the left stubs to the tree owner.
 
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I opted not to remove the stubs as I had read in Gilman and Shigo that removing the live tissue that is trying to close over a wound, even if it's beyond the branch collar, is not good. Better to leave it.

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Robert, I think you answered your own question, and I think you made the right decision. Pruning cuts that destroy natural protection zones can and do cause serious injuries.

I don't have much personal experience with pruning Pinus strobus. It's natural range doesn't include my region. Unlike many in the Northeast, most of the white pines here are stunted and scrubby.

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I assume that different species all have various subtleties in responding to wounds/healing/callusing, etc.

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Agreed. But I would imagine that a species with such a broad range would have a fair degree of genetic variability. Therefore different individual trees can and do respond to wounding differently, their response being influenced by genetic and local environmental factors.
 
I believe I would have left the stubs as well. Especially since you can see evidence of callusing. It kind of goes back to the whole thing about removing deadwood being healthier, indifferent, or unhealthier for the tree. I believe that removing callus tissue definitely falls into the unhealthy category.
I do agree with TreeCo though about having to explain yourself to the homeowner. Sometimes that can be the more difficult discussion imo.
 
I have the same situation. Big old white pine with storm damage and as usual in white pine, dead old stubs on the way up. I haven't been up there yet but will keep in mind this callus. And as been discussed, the outcome will depend on how much the ho is willing to put up with the unsightliness. Does anyone have a pic of this callusing I am not sure what it is?
 
So callus is codit. And if you see codit at the end of a broken branch you shouldn't cut it back to the collar? I need to read up more on my Shigo. When I see a broken branch I don't even check if it is healing over. To me a clean cut surpasses a jagged edge in all cases. Whether to take it back to the collar depends on the size and importance of the branch.
 
we should have the knowledge and vocabulary to talk trees with clients. If they don't understand the damage caused by cutting off knobs from old broken limbs it's the arborist's job to figure out a way to explain that to them in their language.

If knobs are cut off, causing more wounding, just because they 'look' odd it becomes a slippery slope that can/may lead to some other less professional tree care methods.

One way that I explained this to clients was to make an analogy to a scratched fender on your car. Do you fix it right by taking it down to metal, add primer, etc. Or use a rattle can to cover it up? which is right?
 
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we should have the knowledge and vocabulary to talk trees with clients. If they don't understand the damage caused by cutting off knobs from old broken limbs it's the arborist's job to figure out a way to explain that to them in their language.

If knobs are cut off, causing more wounding, just because they 'look' odd it becomes a slippery slope that can/may lead to some other less professional tree care methods.

One way that I explained this to clients was to make an analogy to a scratched fender on your car. Do you fix it right by taking it down to metal, add primer, etc. Or use a rattle can to cover it up? which is right?

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Tom I'm pretty sure we are knot talking knobs here. We are talking stubs that have started to close....not finished closing. My experience with white pine is that decay is going to run down the stub to the branch collar in the long run and leave habitat for insects and fungi that may get through the collar.

Photos would be most excellent.
 
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So callus is codit. And if you see codit at the end of a broken branch you shouldn't cut it back to the collar? I need to read up more on my Shigo. When I see a broken branch I don't even check if it is healing over. To me a clean cut surpasses a jagged edge in all cases. Whether to take it back to the collar depends on the size and importance of the branch.

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I'm not sure that callus is codit...??? Isn't CODIT the 4 walls, i.e. the 4 ways that the tree seals off the wound. And isn't callus new tissue that forms over the outside of the wound?

I might be wrong here...

But it seems like an important distinction because a tree might close over a wound quickly and completely (callus tissue), which they do even after a flush cut. However, even if the wound is not exposed on the outside, CODIT is operating independently on the inside, and depending on the species, environment, and health of the tree, CODIT is less or more effective in keeping decay from spreading up, down, inside, and around from the wound.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the distinction between the two is important because a closed wound doesn't necessarily mean healthy tissue on the inside, right?
 
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Photos would be most excellent.

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Yes - I have a cheap digital that I should start climbing with. Oh well - I probably won't have a chance to get back up into this tree until the next ice storm. Maybe I'll take some pictures then and bump this thread back to the top.

As far as explaining to the homeowner, I don't have that problem in this circumstance. I'm in a pretty unique situation where I work for the grounds department of a small college. As it turns out, I know more about trees than anybody on staff, which is not something that I'm glad or bragging about considering my few years of experience and limited knowledge in doing this work. Most of the time I'm explaining to folks why the heck I'm up in the trees to begin with...and why I'm not wearing gaffs.

For the record, I would much rather be working under someone with a ton of experience and knowlege with trees...oh well...hooray for treebuzz.
 
From what I know, if their is a stub with callus growth already forming around it, you are supposed to leave the stub. I remember Shigo saying that and professors at college.

With that said, its not always what the client wants. If its for aesthetics, than the stubs will probably be removed, if not by you than someone else. But, if you can explain to the client way they should be left, than leaving them is the way to go.
 
I guess the first thing I'd want to determine is whether the callus growth is branch callus or trunk callus. If it is branch callus I'd be inclined to remove the stub with a proper #3 cut..

Reason being is multi-fold but my primary considerations are:
<ul type="square"> [*]If the stub does not have any/enough foliage on it to be self supporting from a photosynthesis stand point the tree will eventually shut it off in a self pruning mode.
[*]Proper CODIT of the branch socket within the trunk is dependent on the branch collar, which is trunk tissue, forming the final wall.[/list]

So, just because there is callus forming doesn't mean it is the correct callus.

On the other hand if there is some foliage on the stub and it appears that the foliage is supporting the stub and the new callus I'd be inclined to leave the stub and clean up any jagged or protruding deadwood that inhibits the callus.

As long as it appears the stub is otherwise growing and sustaining, and it doesn't threaten anything in case of failure, why not give it a chance to recover?
 
This is a tough call. Having had my fair share of Pinus strobus here in central Wisconsin around here they all look torn up on the mature ones. Or at least you see a stub here and there. With that said I would do a proper cut if they were fresh or newly broken off. If they were older and started to seal over I would leave them or cut them back to that tissue all depending on certain circumstances. I think you made the good choice.

Remember trees have been taking care of themselves for millions of years and we think we know whats best for them in the couple hundred of years we have been taking care of them.
 
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I'm not sure that callus is codit...???

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I forgot to put a question mark after my statement, "callus is codit". The pic treeco linked us to says codit. I was just trying stir things a little to get some posters to differentiate the difference. I have a different idea of codit than what treeco's pic showed. I understand codit but still after reading this thread don't understand callus.

What Tom offered about knobs, I don't know. I don't have knobs on my pine, I have broken branches. Like 4' stubs are left with some old ones that have been there for years. I don't see how any healing could be possible seeing, in my experience the next step is the bark falls off back to the trunk as the wood rots over years and eventually falls to the ground. Cutting that dead wood would allow the codit to form sooner. Am I missing something not knowing what callus is?
 
From the spread-of-decay perspective, cut the stub immediately to the outside of the woundwood that is trying to close the wound. This does leave a partially enclosed stub that will continue to close. This woundwood (mistakenly called callus) is stem tissue, not branch tissue.

Closure and compartmentalization are two parts of the tree response to injury and infection. CODIT is a model of how compartmentalization works but is not itself compartmentalization. Think of it as the relationship of a desktop globe and the planet earth. The former is a representation of the latter.
Yes, photos would help.

You might want to look at my little article:

http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/8529
 
Great article Kevin!

Looking at the publish dates in your references....that Shigo fellow sure stands out as being a couple of decades ahead of his time. RIP Alex.
 
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From the spread-of-decay perspective, cut the stub immediately to the outside of the woundwood that is trying to close the wound. This does leave a partially enclosed stub that will continue to close. This woundwood (mistakenly called callus) is stem tissue, not branch tissue.

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Thanks Kevin for a simple solution to the question. Yes, it's imperative not to wound stem callus imo, though branch callus is good tissue too. Less clear is the relevance of gilman's zone 9 chart which lists 1 kind of pine in each (very) general category, or the callus/woundwood definitions.

The guiding principle for me is: minimize wounding. A 2" wound at the end of a stub/knob/branch thingy is better than a 4" wound at the origin, most of the time. And yes we can inform a client as to why branches are not all removed to origins!
 
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The guiding principle for me is: minimize wounding. A 2" wound at the end of a stub/knob/branch thingy is better than a 4" wound at the origin, most of the time. And yes we can inform a client as to why branches are not all removed to origins!

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Do you estimate the square inch area of the wound...or just go by the diameter of the branch?

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Up in the top there are 5-6 broken stubs, around 4-6 inches in diameter and on average about a foot long. <font color="red">They're all jagged on the end. </font>



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area or diameter? area. the jagged ends of exposed xylem would get cut back to the new collar, at the edge of the callus/woundwood/scar/ tissue. The wrinkles growing out the stub are stem/collar tissue and as Kevin said this should not be wounded if possible.
 
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