SRT and DdRT Similarities

oceans

oceans

Been here much more than a while
Location
RI
I'd like to begin a thread to discuss our 2 most common means of climbing a tree from an established Tie In Point; Single Rope, and Doubled Rope. My thought, here, is to truly expose the SIMILARITIES of these 2 techniques. I think there are some misconceptions about both types of climbing. There will NOT be a vote, score, or any rating based on this discussion. I use both types of climbing systems, and think that there are more similarities than not. I'd love to see what you all think.

I'm sure many correlations have been made in other threads here, and on other internet forums, but it would be nice to have as many ideas as possible in one place.

I hope we can steer away from opinions about why one method is BETTER/WORSE, or SAFER/DANGEROUS, or anything of that nature. There's been plenty of that already... Both methods have been around for years, and since the recent creation of numerous SRT climbing tools, SRT has gained a great deal of attention.

We're all on the same team here!
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Here are some examples of what I'm thinking:

SRT & DdRT, in their most basic form, are both done on a single piece of rope.

SRT & DdRT(hybrid) can both be performed with a Basal Anchor System.

SRT & DdRT can both be performed with a Canopy Anchor System.

SRT & DdRT can both damage to tree cambium.

SRT & DdRT can both prevent damage to tree cambium.

SRT & DdRT can both result in an injured climber being rescued from an aerial or remote method (remote meaning Basal Anchor integrated Rescue system [BAR])

SRT & DdRT do not necessarily require toothed cam ascenders.

etc, etc, etc...
 
I've always been fascinated by the idea that srt and drt are two different schools of climbing. I think there is just climbing, and the different methods are just tools in the toolbox
 
You're on the right track, Mac!

DdRT is actually a single rope variation. The configuration is just different.

Stop and think how different tree climbing would look if the original rope/harness climbers a century ago would have configured things differently.
 
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What do you mean by Ddrt hybrid??

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A DdRT Hybrid system is one that implements some of the concepts of both SRT and DdRT. An example would be setting up a base anchored line that is routed over a suitable branch union. It does not need to be isolated. A climber can ascend that single leg of line on an SRT system, and after reaching a point at which lateral movement is desired, a pulley can be installed on the single line through which a DdRT system can be set up and used. This may require spiking the single line below the pulley to prevent it from sliding down the single line while working away from it, depending on the gear configuration.

What I described is a glorified (and potentially adjustable) floating false crotch system.
 
This method was showed to me right off the bat. Pull a separate line up with another line attached to a pulley in which to go ddrt with. Tie off the single line to the base and climb on the other side of the tp with the double rope slung through the pulley. If needed to be rescued just untie the single rope and lower the whole system. And you got a pulley to lessen friction to boot. Just need two ropes. Would that be correct, Eric?
 
Purdy much, Bob. There are quite a few ways to set up a hybrid system, but the basic concept is to climb DdRT system that is connected to a single rope, or SRT system.
 
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...DdRT is actually a single rope variation...

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Give this man a prize!! Great insight as usual, Tom. It is the reason why when someone asks me a question about SRT, my answer is often preceded with my own question so I can understand what type of SRT they are referring to.

Dave
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...DdRT is actually a single rope variation...

[/ QUOTE ]

Give this man a prize!! Great insight as usual, Tom. It is the reason why when someone asks me a question about SRT, my answer is often preceded with my own question so I can understand what type of SRT they are referring to.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a concept I conveyed at the NEC-SRT Workshop. I set up a typical DdRT system with a Hitch Climber system, and everyone was familiar with it. Then, by disconnecting the eye of the climb line from the HC pulley and anchoring it to another location, it became the beginning of a Rope Wrench SRT system.

I think that opened up some immediate and solid understanding for some of the climbers there.
 
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I've always been fascinated by the idea that srt and drt are two different schools of climbing. I think there is just climbing, and the different methods are just tools in the toolbox

[/ QUOTE ]

Schools for "smahhht" kids.
grin.gif
Just kidding... I agree, Mac.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to begin a thread to discuss our 2 most common means of climbing a tree from an established Tie In Point; Single Rope, and Doubled Rope. My thought, here, is to truly expose the SIMILARITIES of these 2 techniques. I think there are some misconceptions about both types of climbing. There will NOT be a vote, score, or any rating based on this discussion. I use both types of climbing systems, and think that there are more similarities than not. I'd love to see what you all think.

I'm sure many correlations have been made in other threads here, and on other internet forums, but it would be nice to have as many ideas as possible in one place.

I hope we can steer away from opinions about why one method is BETTER/WORSE, or SAFER/DANGEROUS, or anything of that nature. There's been plenty of that already... Both methods have been around for years, and since the recent creation of numerous SRT climbing tools, SRT has gained a great deal of attention.

We're all on the same team here!
laugh.gif


Here are some examples of what I'm thinking:

SRT & DdRT, in their most basic form, are both done on a single piece of rope.

SRT & DdRT(hybrid) can both be performed with a Basal Anchor System.

SRT & DdRT can both be performed with a Canopy Anchor System.

SRT & DdRT can both damage to tree cambium.

SRT & DdRT can both prevent damage to tree cambium.

SRT & DdRT can both result in an injured climber being rescued from an aerial or remote method (remote meaning Basal Anchor integrated Rescue system [BAR])

SRT & DdRT do not necessarily require toothed cam ascenders.

etc, etc, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both need the same amount of vigilance toward hitch safety. Both require the same body response for movement and are identical for belay control.
After years of being a 'single rope climber' I've begun to realise that 2:1 offers hugely and I rig 1:1 inside that system when I need it and 3:1 inside the 1:1 when that is called for too. The wheels of training schools turn slowly...don't hold your breath.....
 
Hey here are four:

Both systems require proper slack management

Both systems require solid T.I.P's

Both require adequate and through pre-climb inspections

Both have specific gear and equipment requirements that must be adhered to for proper, safe, efficient function.

Just throwing some of my pet peeves out there
grin.gif


Tony
 
Soooo...if I combine what Tony and Mac say...I think that I'd come to the conclusion that climbing is climbing. There are only minor differences between SRT and DdRT. The differences are not primary, secondary or even tertiary. The differences are small and specific.
 
My climbing technique, motion and body mechanics for DRT and SRT are identical, the only difference for SRT is there's a rope wrench over the hitch.

I'm finding it more difficult to control cambium damage climbing on multiple redirects SRT. Been some great ideas put forth to solve that, need more discovery and refinements of existing technique to reduce damage to the tree.

I've had to improve my arm/shoulder strength for SRT, as efficient as 1:1 is overall, you still have to lift your entire weight and gear each pull during ascent. This does not mean I'm not using my legs DRT or SRT but arms share a certain amount of work no matter what (if a chest roller or similar system component is not used).
-AJ
 
Very interesting discussion oceans, I think being a pretty new climber I come into these concepts with very little bias or prejudice for one system over another. I really think it is a matter of one being more appropriate for the situation then another at any given time. I think that if there is a bias to a particular system, it simply is the old dog new trick concept.

I think the similarities AND the differences are the same.

I THINK IT IS MORE A VOCABULARY THAN IT IS A CLIMBING TECHNIQUE. Simply, It helps to verbalize what is being done with your rope to create a visual picture of what you are doing.
Example: I climbed SRT with a base anchor using the Unicender.
Or.
I climbed DdRT with a VT friction hitch.
Otherwise you have to explain that you climbed a tree or a building or a rock with a ladder or spikes or a rope etc etc every time you discuss it.
A rope hanging over the branch in the tree could be ANYTHING and changed quickly.
I can make a DdRT system Into SRT by sending up in Alpine Butterfly
and without using words an observer might not know the difference. Just by using a prusik and a revolver carabiner I can hang from a single line and get a better mechanical advantage then from a doubled rope. But without words someone may not see the difference.
So what I'm saying in a rather long way, is it is more about vocabulary then it is about technique or a equipment.
What I do find very interesting is the perceived likeness between rock climbing and tree climbing, when there are really very few similarities.
 
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Soooo...if I combine what Tony and Mac say...I think that I'd come to the conclusion that climbing is climbing. There are only minor differences between SRT and DdRT. The differences are not primary, secondary or even tertiary. The differences are small and specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom,

I agree, but only to the extent that the devil is always in the details.
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Sure anybody of reasonable fitness can run a mile. It is an elite few who can do it at winning olympic pace. Same tools, same application, different results.

Climbing is climbing in that the end result is safe, efficient movement up and down, left and right.

It is overgeneralization to say that the many ways to accomplish this are all the same plus or minus minor differences.

There are many similarities, but also some marked differences as well.

Tony
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to begin a thread to discuss our 2 most common means of climbing a tree from an established Tie In Point; Single Rope, and Doubled Rope. My thought, here, is to truly expose the SIMILARITIES of these 2 techniques.......

[/ QUOTE ]

So it seems that the similarities are pretty easily exposed, can anyone think of a DIFFERENCE, in other words something that only apples to one system and not the other?
I think the thread pretty much points out that both can use a canopy anchor, both can have mechanical advantage both can...etc. etc. I just can't think of anything that would be exclusive to either one. Can anyone???
To me the technology, tools and concepts have created such a wide variety of methods the acronyms (SRT and DdRT)are just a starting place to explain what you are climbing and how you are doing it.

Got one.........DdRT uses a pulley SRT does not.......wait a minute.....just the other day I sent a butterfly stopper knot with biner to my DdRT anchor so I could go back up SRT.....still thinking...........
 
Tony,

Ok...so, please take the time to share your thoughts about the differences and similarities.

I organize things in layers. Sometimes in columns when comparing. I've climbed rock, ice and done some mountaineering too. All climbing but not a lot in common w tree climbing. There are LOTS of things incommon for SRT/DdRT though...in my view, from a basic , first level consideration.
 
Hawks; ...you say the wheels are turning slowly, but at least they're turning!

Moss; I'm interested to hear more about the identical body mechanics. Is this due to similar methods for constant slack management?

Yo Yo; The vocabulary can get right out of hand these days! There's another similarity of the techniques. When I spoke of a DdRT Hybrid, it referred to DdRT off SRT, but I've done SRT off DdRT before: http://vimeo.com/57726543

Tony/Tom; I think that ANY climbing system can become very complex (and needlessly so in some cases). The additional complexities can create dramatic differences between "techniques", however, I imagine much of the gear is interchangeable, or capable of multiple applications. In fact, flexibility is something I truly appreciate in a piece of gear. I can really see what Tom is saying, in that without all the potentially complex system components, at the heart, SRT and DdRT are quite the same thing.
 
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