Spar System?

Tony · Apr 29, 2020

Sfoppema said:
Anything other than a super squiggly spar just straight up lanyard down. I didn't do that when I started and Ive regretted it. Guys I train I make them do it out of the gate cause once you are comfortable with it you'll be faster and more comfortable. Scary for a beginner, but it's just the right way in my opinion.....

Could you please clarify this? When descending a spar you advise climbers to abandon a climbing system and go lanyard only?

Sfoppema · Apr 29, 2020

Tony said:
Could you please clarify this? When descending a spar you advise climbers to abandon a climbing system and go lanyard only?

Two points of tie in are required for cutting only. Lanyarding down or up with no overhead climbing line is allowed by the z. I finish cut, disconnect climb line, lanyard down, reconnect, cut, repeat. For me, and I believe anyone, more efficient and gets rid of bad habits of relying on climb line to clumsily descend spar. Learned from Brian Kane PhD on board for ISA. Also Dennis Ryan PhD who had a hand in writing the z.

I think abandon isn't the right word, but I suppose you could use it.

Kris Fugate · Apr 29, 2020

Sfoppema said:
Two points of tie in are required for cutting only. Lanyarding down or up with no overhead climbing line is allowed by the z. I finish cut, disconnect climb line, lanyard down, reconnect, cut, repeat. For me, and I believe anyone, more efficient and gets rid of bad habits of relying on climb line to clumsily descend spar. Learned from Brian Kane PhD on board for ISA. Also Dennis Ryan PhD who had a hand in writing the z.

I think abandon isn't the right word, but I suppose you could use it.

I’ve gotten away from setting my line when doing some removals. I realized I was relying to much in my system to climb the tree rather than relying on my ability to climb with my spikes. Good point.

Kris Fugate · Apr 29, 2020

Kris Fugate said:
I’ve gotten away from setting my line when doing some removals. I realized I was relying to much in my system to climb the tree rather than relying on my ability to climb with my spikes. Good point.

Obviously I tie in before cutting and all lol

SomethingWitty · Apr 29, 2020

I have started not pre-setting a climb line on some removals just to focus on my spur technique.
At ARC, they made us flip our climbing system with our lanyard and it was so awkward for me and I bombed it.
It will not be that way this September.

rope-a-dope · Apr 29, 2020

No way do I believe spiking down is faster than descending on a line already set from the cut. A few steps down for cutting tiny chunks is understandable, I dont really use the climb line if I'm only moving less than my height. Maybe the perceived hassle is resetting the climb line after pulling it down from the top??? My spar anchor usually falls right onto my lanyard and I just pull the slack out. No carabiners open at all.
Just picking on the speed argument, here. Im absolutely in favor of developing better spur climbers!

Tony · Apr 29, 2020

Sfoppema said:
Two points of tie in are required for cutting only. Lanyarding down or up with no overhead climbing line is allowed by the z. I finish cut, disconnect climb line, lanyard down, reconnect, cut, repeat. For me, and I believe anyone, more efficient and gets rid of bad habits of relying on climb line to clumsily descend spar. Learned from Brian Kane PhD on board for ISA. Also Dennis Ryan PhD who had a hand in writing the z.

I think abandon isn't the right word, but I suppose you could use it.

Thanks for the clarification. You are following the letter of the Z133. Just because we can do something does not always make it the best choice. I see your point, I disagree with the method. If the move down is short, I tend to just grab, both climb system and lanyard and step on down. If it is longer I repel then pull the anchor to me. I don‘t find either to be very time consuming, but that is me. Most times when working there is very little to no pressure on my climbing system. All my weight and positioning comes from my lanyard. The climbing system is just tagging along.

I would recommend using your method in an aerial rescue situation, then one with the victim already tied in. I think you will see a difference. Hazardous work demands all reasonable preparations in my mind.

I fully admit there are situations where spruring up and down is the best course of action. However, I believe it to be the exception not the rule.

my .02

Tony

Brando CalPankian · Apr 29, 2020

I started using a hh2 and experimenting with cinching. Had a ditty bad full of 1/4 inch line and a throw bag, for redirects and retrieving the system. The hh2 can be used ddrt or srs and is a bulletproof design. Before that I'd always used a running bowline with the tail through a biner for retrieval and to take resistance out of the hitch, since you're on srs on a cinched system. When I'm rocking the zigzag it's an afs all day. Quick, simple, effective.

Sfoppema · Apr 29, 2020

rope-a-dope said:
No way do I believe spiking down is faster than descending on a line already set from the cut. A few steps down for cutting tiny chunks is understandable, I dont really use the climb line if I'm only moving less than my height. Maybe the perceived hassle is resetting the climb line after pulling it down from the top??? My spar anchor usually falls right onto my lanyard and I just pull the slack out. No carabiners open at all.
Just picking on the speed argument, here. Im absolutely in favor of developing better spur climbers!

I'm talking about going down 8 feet or so taking chunks. Coming down from a 50 foot stem I would certainly agree on using a climbing rope. I use drt so my whole point is perhaps not well placed in this thread.

Sfoppema · Apr 29, 2020

Tony said:
Thanks for the clarification. You are following the letter of the Z133. Just because we can do something does not always make it the best choice. I see your point, I disagree with the method. If the move down is short, I tend to just grab, both climb system and lanyard and step on down. If it is longer I repel then pull the anchor to me. I don‘t find either to be very time consuming, but that is me. Most times when working there is very little to no pressure on my climbing system. All my weight and positioning comes from my lanyard. The climbing system is just tagging along.

I would recommend using your method in an aerial rescue situation, then one with the victim already tied in. I think you will see a difference. Hazardous work demands all reasonable preparations in my mind.

I fully admit there are situations where spruring up and down is the best course of action. However, I believe it to be the exception not the rule.

my .02

Tony

I also sometimes leave my climb line around stem on decent and try to flip down with my lanyard. I guess my thought is it's kind of clumsy and slows me down. Back to training new guys.... They're obviously uncomfortable on a spar with just a lanyard and they want to have climbing line synched up tight every time they move an inch because they are afraid. Which is understandable. Been there. Sooner you can get rid of that bad habit, the better. That was kind of my point about that. I just tell them to make the cut, disconnect, go up or down, retie, and proceed. that's on a straight spar. they get comfortable faster. I understand that it's nice to have a backup even if you aren't cutting... I couldn't come up with an argument to stop anyone from doing it but I'm trying to stay away from it unless the occasion calls for it.

Serf Life · Apr 29, 2020

Tony said:
If the move down is short, I tend to just grab, both climb system and lanyard and step on down.

That’s what I do as well on smaller diameter stuff and short down climbs, drt or srt and with a bunch of slack. I put the tail of the line in between my handsaw scabbard and saddle to keep it away from the spurs. I learned lanyard up and down doing woodsmen comps and totally agree @Sfoppema with teaching that way. Being confident with spurs and lanyard is lovely, but addictive. Been doing a ground work and prunes for the past month and itching to put my squirrel shoes back on.

Tony · Apr 30, 2020

Sfoppema said:
I also sometimes leave my climb line around stem on decent and try to flip down with my lanyard. I guess my thought is it's kind of clumsy and slows me down. Back to training new guys.... They're obviously uncomfortable on a spar with just a lanyard and they want to have climbing line synched up tight every time they move an inch because they are afraid. Which is understandable. Been there. Sooner you can get rid of that bad habit, the better. That was kind of my point about that. I just tell them to make the cut, disconnect, go up or down, retie, and proceed. that's on a straight spar. they get comfortable faster. I understand that it's nice to have a backup even if you aren't cutting... I couldn't come up with an argument to stop anyone from doing it but I'm trying to stay away from it unless the occasion calls for it.

Seems reasonable. I would caution against teaching new climbers as you may be opening the door to potentially poor habit. It is easier to form a good one than break a bad. When your new it is all awkward. Tell to embrace the suck and get better

Tony

Steve Connally · Apr 30, 2020

I always SRT on spar work. AB with a Quickie choke. When I was doing crane work every day I put a stitch of whipping twine in my line at 16'. That way i'd tie at the twine and keep my retrieval leg 16' so I knew where to stop to cut for mill logs. I still see guys who climb Srt do removals and spar work dDrt. I just don't understand it. Why mess with all that jazz trying to make a synching anchor for dDrt.