Serius Rope Outer Sheath Failure

Magnum783 · Jan 13, 2016

Steve Connally said:
Maybe I'll send it in to treestuff for break testing.

I like this idea as it my reveal much information we could all benefit from. Treestuff did the wear testing with a block now this is the real stuff

Steve Connally · Jan 13, 2016

Coulda been a nail on the stem. True. I'm sending 4 pieces off for break testing. I'll let you know what the results are. Again I ran my fingers over anything that looked suspicious on the porty. Nada. I'll just have to be more judiscous about switching lines. It's sort of a pain but I'll get it figured out and get a system down with my rope man. Just don't like having all my gear out of the box but that's really not a valid excuse when it's for safety sake. I ordered 200' of brw.

dmd · Jan 13, 2016

What about something to do with the wrench. Go with me for a second here. If a rope runs over a pulley that is too small, you wind up with some rope in compression and some in tension. The rope that is in compression can't carry the load so the rope in tension is exposed to more of the load. This will generally force the cover to carry more of the load. Now with a wrench that has caught a large piece of wood, the rope goes through the wrench quickly. The bend radius is tight and quickly changes directions. This is key. The rope quickly goes from compression to tension. This sudden change would be like a mini shock load that was focused solely on the cover. This would cause the cover to wear out before the core. Now if I'm right, what you experienced was the combination of a large branch + worn out cover + too many wraps. None of those by themselves would have been a problem but when you put them all together it was just too much for the cover of the rope to handle.

Thoughts?

Steve Connally · Jan 13, 2016

Makes total sense. Wouldn't the cover have likely failed at the wrench though? I've probably been using the wrench on too much big stuff. Give me a ballpark weight that you guys would dc use of the wrench and go back to normal rigging. I had been putting it through the paces and pushing it pretty hard to see what the limitations were. If you're rite, I may have found it.

DSMc · Jan 13, 2016

I would think the logical limit would be what you can safely hold with just the rigging wrench. When you leave it on while taking wraps on the Stein you are putting some serious loads on the lowering line.

sherwood7 · Jan 13, 2016

Steve Connally said:
Makes total sense. Wouldn't the cover have likely failed at the wrench though? I've probably been using the wrench on too much big stuff. Give me a ballpark weight that you guys would dc use of the wrench and go back to normal rigging. I had been putting it through the paces and pushing it pretty hard to see what the limitations were. If you're rite, I may have found it.

dmd's post seems to make sense. Although the rope wrench is spected for up to 13mm. Maybe for larger loads in rigging were the rope flattens a bit under load, 12mm is too big. I think maybe the same size rope that works well for srt might be the ticket for the rigging wrench as well. Also I would say any time you use the porty, I would not have the rigging wrench in play. If it cant to the job by its self then its prob time for a block, rings, etc.. Just a guess

dmd · Jan 13, 2016

The bend ratio on the wrench is variable depending upon how much weight it's holding. As the weight increases the body of the wrench starts to align more in the direction of the load causing a significant increase in the bend. Consistent heavy loads on the wrench would exponentially increase the wear on the rope.
Using the wrench with a porta wrap would not cause an increase in the load on the rope but would rather cause a drastic increase on the amount of bend and the damage caused by the bend. That would drastically decrease the cycles to failure of the cover.
The highest forces with regard to the rope are between the wrench and the branch. The fact that the cover parted on the other side of the wrench, at the porta wrap is weird. That was either just the weakest part of the rope or there was a problem with the way the porta wrap was rigged.
If the cover parts when tree stuff pulls this rope I think that'd be a smoking gun.

southsoundtree · Jan 13, 2016

Steve Connally said:
Purchase date 7/8/15 so figure it went in service about 3 days after that. So I got 6 months out of it. Doesn't seem like enough. I feel like e wear on the rope is fairly uniform. I can take more pics but it looks fairly even to me. Couple spots here and there but I guess it only took that one spot!

The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long.

Ryan Keats · Jan 13, 2016

sherwood7 said:
dmd's post seems to make sense. Although the rope wrench is spected for up to 13mm. Maybe for larger loads in rigging were the rope flattens a bit under load, 12mm is too big. I think maybe the same size rope that works well for srt might be the ticket for the rigging wrench as well. Also I would say any time you use the porty, I would not have the rigging wrench in play. If it cant to the job by its self then its prob time for a block, rings, etc.. Just a guess

I use vortex with the wrench which is 12.7mm. Do you think weight would affect it that much?

sherwood7 · Jan 13, 2016

Ryan Keats said:
I use vortex with the wrench which is 12.7mm. Do you think weight would affect it that much?

I am not sure. I personally would only use the wrench with like 11.7 ish and only put loads on it that someone could handle without a friction device. It seems to be a specialty device, not meant to take the place of a block.

Steve Connally · Jan 14, 2016

In gonna run cougar with it until my brv comes in. It's back ordered. Thanks for the insight.

Steve Connally · Jan 14, 2016

Cancelled the back order and am getting Hawkeye. Bad ass color pattern. It's all about the show! You'd think a brighter color would make it more noticeable and less apt to be cut by a reckless groundman. I used a cougar I don't climb on anymore today and it performed awesome, however I like a little fatter line for more friction. This learning curve has been pretty costly. Needed to replace the Sirius anyway. Gotta love excuses to buy more stuff. Just glad no one was hurt and the only property damage was to my own gear. Thank again guys for the time you've given to this thread and my ignorance.

baumeister · Jan 16, 2016

I have had mystery failures myself. It takes me maybe 3 to 6 months until I convince myself there was something I didn't see or did wrong. I can never prove it but the gut feeling is there. If that rope was mine I would have the same doubts that you have about having done anything wrong. That said looking at the pictures from an outsider I would agree that the rope was well used, the limb was a large limb and somewhere in your system that rope was contacting something that caused The sheath to rip and then tear. I would certainly not blame it on the rope. I have that same rope in five eights inch diameter. I used the heck out of it for two years and just retired it yesterday. The sheath was glazed a bit and the rope showed heavy use. I have no doubt you take good care of your stuff and that you feel you may not have done anything wrong. But the fax Are telling you another story. If you ever find the true answer it will be a learning experience. If not you can chalk it up to a defective rope. However considering the rope Sustained heavy use for a complete year I would assume a defect would have shown up much earlier. At my company When we have 'incidents' on the job we have a protocol:

First: you have to assume an error was made and try to find it.

What happened: detail everything, rebuild the system, look at every detail find out what made this situation different.

Why? List all possible reasons and then refer back to your system to see if any of these are plausible.

How do we avoid this in the future. ?

I have a binder and have the guys write incident reports when they happen.

You have a very unique opportunity for learning and it will take some good deductive reasoning. Good luck Sherlock!

Steve Connally · Jan 16, 2016

The break testing will shed some insight I'm sure. I'm convinced too much rig n wrench with too much big stuff contributed some. I doubt it was a "faulty rope construction" issue.

Steve Connally · Jan 19, 2016

Last night I chatted via facebook with Regina Costa. She asked if she could have the rope so they could have it looked at in the lab. They stand by their product and would like to evaluate the rope to make sure it's not a manufacturer defect. Great stuff. I was very impressed that she hunted me down and made contact. She did seem concerned that I didn't like the rope. For the record........I love the Sirius line of ropes. Great product. It just may not be the best rope for the application I'm using it for. If I had room for multiple(greater than 2) rigging ropes in the box I'd have Hawkeye 1/2", Sirius 14mm, and Sirius 18mm. I truly hope this thread hasn't left the impression that I'm dogging the product. I'm not. A failure happened and I'm simply looking to explain it. DMD seems to have the most logical explanation. Wear + Use = cycles to failure. Using the rope during excessive stress applications makes it happen quicker. I'll say again, there was no drop or catastrophic failure. The core held like a champ and never missed a beat.

macswan · Jan 19, 2016

Gina is THE best. Tuefelburger/NE ropes are one of my favorite companies in this Arbo game.

DSMc · Jan 19, 2016

dmd said:
...As the weight increases the body of the wrench starts to align more in the direction of the load causing a significant increase in the bend. Consistent heavy loads on the wrench would exponentially increase the wear on the rope....

Leaving the RW on while lowering weights heavy enough to require a bollard, seems a logical place to focus.

treebing · Jan 19, 2016

interesting, didn't you say it broke on part of the rope that doesn't run through the wrench though?

Steve Connally · Jan 19, 2016

Yes that has me puzzled also. Unless a bad or worn spot just gave up at the bollard. It's a mystery. Trying to get as much information as possible. Hopefully the results will help us all.