Regarding the highlighted text, although this hitch is in the early stages of analysis and test, and therefore can't yet be considered in life support applications, it's worthy of note that such applications ARE of interest, and therefore a feature of interest in THIS quick release hitch is that it provides resistance from release when under load. Stated another way: as originally conceived, I wanted this hitch to be easy to release when (a moderate) load has been released, but I didn't want this hitch to be easy to release when it is under load. However, given that there are potential applications for both (either easy or difficult to release under load), if variants of the hitch or its finish can achieve either result, that is of interest and has been a subject of investigation for me as well. I am standing by with that information. I simply did not want to introduce it yet and 'muddy the waters'.
Secure, omnidirectional quick release hitch
- Thread starter John RB
- Start date
Hey TreeSpyder... i was not online when the conversation happened and i think the post is gone now, but as i mull it over, i think what you were doing is trying to contribute by saying something like this: "hey dude, if you think you invented a new knot, umm, well good luck, but ya probably didn't, cuz Clifford Ashley's ABOK has literally a kazillion knots and even tho I am pretty good at tying knots (and other things), even I don't know half of what's in there, and so do yourself a favor and look there first... I'm trying to help... ok, now where did i put my beer?...."
Well if that's kinda where you were coming from, then i wanted to say thanks, and I will take the blame for not being more specific in saying that i do have a hard copy of ABOK and spent a whole night and a considerable amount of FINE Scotch looking for this hitch and struck out. And then i looked everywhere else i could find online and also struck out.
That being said, I gotta ton of respect for Agent Smith simply because his reputation for knowledgeable, direct, appropriate, concise, no BS communication is in so many of the threads I have learned from. And so basically, i just wanted to put all that behind us and move on. Deal? Now, would ya go tie the hitch and tell me what ya think? Have your rigger use it as an anchor next time you're lowering half a giant sequoia and tell me how easy it spills after you had 3 tons on it... ok?
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Really nothing at all so nefarious; i was just SIMPLY trying to give a previously mentioned link of our great mutual friend and benefactor Riggs @ EducatedClimber that might have first seen hear so just giving back, and use that opportunity to give other background links like also another of our own, Gerry's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" book, generously released to same tree brethren site when book went out of print after 25yrs ; as i stated in my usual fullness. All as background to all, nothing more, but certainly nothing less neither. All very loyally to them as they are roots of my understandings on the topics spoken. But am sorry that removing post of "absolutely no content (ie zero) " was deemed as equally wrong as posting it(?). Even been called *Useless Info* before; but hey 'saul goodman (Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul fave word play).
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i did have other comments on why round host mount is IMPERATIVE to the rope mechanix shown, how this is focused linear direction imposed/input fed force converted to radial arc control around the round host mount to yes give capstan effect(my research spreadcheat link), and thus also MUST contain it's other extreme end / reciprocal of all (linear input)rope arc usage : the counterintuitive residual directional effect thru the controlling arcs converted to of the persisting linear input of a 'pulley effect'. Same arcs give no capstan nor it's reciprocal pulley effect if directionless radial force input of round binding instead of focused linear input force of all Hitches and Bends as proof.
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Also, why arc compounds by degree not distance as linear does, to spread out friction byproduct in larger capstan diluting to larger area, also larger capstan gives softer rope deformity to make sure in testing that no efficiency compromise from host mount size/ only knot as weakest 'fuse'. Also metal as a material host mount would be bigger heat sink(vs. wood or nylon thermal insulators as host mounts) to those now spread further frictions etc. Arc also uses all tensions for friction control and support, linear does not. But, like the links guess am getting old and would just be repeating self honestly, especially on support structure geometries theories.
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Tho, quick release of lifeline w/o hard overlock is just not my thing i guess.
Peace.
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i did have other comments on why round host mount is IMPERATIVE to the rope mechanix shown, how this is focused linear direction imposed/input fed force converted to radial arc control around the round host mount to yes give capstan effect(my research spreadcheat link), and thus also MUST contain it's other extreme end / reciprocal of all (linear input)rope arc usage : the counterintuitive residual directional effect thru the controlling arcs converted to of the persisting linear input of a 'pulley effect'. Same arcs give no capstan nor it's reciprocal pulley effect if directionless radial force input of round binding instead of focused linear input force of all Hitches and Bends as proof.
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Also, why arc compounds by degree not distance as linear does, to spread out friction byproduct in larger capstan diluting to larger area, also larger capstan gives softer rope deformity to make sure in testing that no efficiency compromise from host mount size/ only knot as weakest 'fuse'. Also metal as a material host mount would be bigger heat sink(vs. wood or nylon thermal insulators as host mounts) to those now spread further frictions etc. Arc also uses all tensions for friction control and support, linear does not. But, like the links guess am getting old and would just be repeating self honestly, especially on support structure geometries theories.
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Tho, quick release of lifeline w/o hard overlock is just not my thing i guess.
Peace.
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John, first off, kudos for developing this hitch. I like it, and though I haven't been able to do any in-the-field testing yet, it appears to work well as a quick-release hitch.
Two questions, the second of which TheTreeSpyder has already alluded to.
As this hitch must be tied at the location, and cannot be set remotely, what would be the benefit of using it in favor of the more traditional choking hitch that is also retrievable with a retrieval line or tail?
Why would someone choose to use a "quick-release" hitch, that by design, has a built-in point for failure, for life support?
Edited for clarity.
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2 reasons:
1. If you're on Facebook, search for a page from New Beginnings Bankruptcy, a public page On Dec 21, 2020, Greg posted a video of how he uses the Stone or Stein knot and fiddlestick for a retrieveable anchor system. That video went viral. I am scared to think how many people are now using this method to rappel. Ok so now, put down your chainsaw for just a minute and brace yourself and picture what's going on out there in the North American Hunting Community: Saddle Hunting is exploding. We have inexperienced climbers using climbing sticks in a leapfrog method known as One Sticking. Nobody wears a helmet of course and when they wanna come down, they rappel. 8mm ropes are out of stock everywhere and a huge reason is because every saddle Hunter wants a piece for their rappel line. You can find plenty of videos about this type of climbing on YouTube. And so when you compare my hitch to the fiddlestick method, particularly the method I have for adding significantly more friction on the release line when it is under load, in my opinion, it's going to save some lives over the fiddlestick method.
2. Climbing sticks are dangerous. They rip open bodies like gut hooks. And as I type, every boating supply place on the planet is selling out of Cam cleats because saddle Hunters are buying them to put on their climbing sticks, as DIY modifications. However, using this hitch AND another secure (but less clever hitch) I devised, I can climb a crotchless tree without the use of anything except my rope system. Of course, I have not demonstrated this to anyone yet. And that is simply because I try to lead by example: I don't want anyone seeing me put my life on a knot or a method and saying that they shouldn't. As far as I know, nobody has a system for this today. For example, could you walk up to a crotchless tree that shaped like a bean pole with your saddle and a rope in your hand and get yourself 25 feet up in a few minutes? And down? Safely? And methodically? Oh, and I would like to know which "more traditional choking hitches" you are referring to which you would use over this one. Are they easily untied if ya take the system near MBS?
Thx. And i do appreciate your time and input. That's cool, and although i had not seen it before, there are some using this method on trees which is generally referred to as a "two tether" method. However, it has some limitations: 1. Bypassing a branch is a hassle. 2. The non uniformity of a tree makes maintaining balance during transition difficult. 3. Advancing the tether is much less predictable on a rough surface. 4. Your center of gravity is not secured, it's balanced. And so it's possible to get yourself in trouble if you lose balance and fall sideways during transition. This happened and the guy was hanging upside down and somehow managed to get his boot off and somehow save himself. 5. There's no quick path to ground. My buddy Greg was shot by a stray bullet a long time ago while hunting from a tree. He was killed, but from what i gathered at the time, it was the fall, not the shot that killed him. I want everyone to have their center of gravity tied in at all times, and have an unencumbered path to ground which can be employed with minimal effort. Bottom line is that I would never use this method myself or recommend it to others. We might be a mile deep in the forest with no cell phone reception... hanging from a system that was wrong for the application. That's not how I want to go out.
I am not selling anything to my audience. I am just trying to promote safer methods and a safer mindset. The irony here is that although I understand why someone wouldn't want to use a quick release hitch for life safety, that's simply because they have a prejudicial opinion about the family of hitches based on the ones they already know. However, I am getting so comfortable and confident in some of my hitches that they are replacing all the other hitches i always used. And of course, removing them is simple. Why is the bowline the king of knots? Cuz its adequately strong and easy to untie after load. So what's the king of hitches? What's the best basal rigging or climbing anchor? Strong, secure, stable, easy to tie, inspect and untie? I don't think we have one. I have two i like. This one, for load on one strand. And a different one for load on 2 strands. I doubt i invented that one tho... cheers man. Thx again.
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- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
YOur hitch seems to work just fine. In general use though I would NEVER promote it's use. The 'Ooops Factor' is way too scary for me.
It seems like you're working on a solution for a haul-back TIP. There are many choked solutions with some sort of tail attached to trip the choke. That tail can be easily deployed and controlled with no 'Ooops Factor'
Arbos work area is very dynamic. Lots of things moving in three dimensions within the sphere of work. Soooo many variables. I'd be reluctant to incorporate a release like this into my work zone.
It is worth pursuing. Best of luck developing the protocols.
It seems like you're working on a solution for a haul-back TIP. There are many choked solutions with some sort of tail attached to trip the choke. That tail can be easily deployed and controlled with no 'Ooops Factor'
Arbos work area is very dynamic. Lots of things moving in three dimensions within the sphere of work. Soooo many variables. I'd be reluctant to incorporate a release like this into my work zone.
It is worth pursuing. Best of luck developing the protocols.
Jehinten
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Evansville
A similar method that I've seen online with a cat rescue, was to alternate the climbing line and lanyard. Reach up and choke the climb line as high as you can reach, climb to it, set your lanyard as high as you can reach (lanyard also attached to your bridge) and alternate your way up. Once to your work height set a retrievable canopy tie, work, repel, retrieve.
Keeps you tied into your center of gravity. Able to repel immediately when on your climb line, and within about two seconds when on your lanyard by choking your climb line and repelling out.
Jehinten, got it right. I only posted that as an example of a concept that has been in use in one form or another for a very long time. Using your main climbing line as the top choking component pretty much fulfills your safety concerns.
I'm guessing anyone smart enough and inventive enough to come up that your hitch, would have no problem fine tuning the details needed to make it work for your specific purpose.
I'm guessing anyone smart enough and inventive enough to come up that your hitch, would have no problem fine tuning the details needed to make it work for your specific purpose.
Tom, with great respect for your position, lets explore what you said about how you wouldn't use this hitch. Forget about life safety... let's just say ya gotta tie a long rope to the base of a tree for whatever reason and it's gonna take a big load. And ya got 100 extra feet of rope so you wanna tie in the bight. For THAT situation: 1. This is quick and easy to tie, and so that can't be the reason. 2. It's strong, stable and secure and so that can't be the reason. 3. After extreme loading, i dont believe any knot would be easier to untie. So now we're leaning this way.
4. Its tied in the bight and so if you're preferred hitch is not, that's a problem for it.
5. You mentioned an oops factor but with the locking beaner on, there is no way to release it. There is no oops factor.
What feature is missing? What would outperform it?
Not because i came up with it, but simply thinking objectively, I can't think of any hitch i would use in its place for the described application. I would always happily use a beaner as a tensionless locking device if it saved me from untying a potentially jammed knot. And so, I know how you feel, but i asking you why? The answer can't be : you don't trust quick release hitches, and for 2 reasons: 1. It's predjudicial. 2. When locked, this is no longer a quick release hitch. It's an impossible to release hitch. It's only a quick release hitch when its unlocked and not loaded. And so what's the reason?
Also will be curious what hitch you would prefer for a strong anchor which takes near MBS loads.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
what I learned to do when loading a tie off was to do at least two wraps then spike the tie off knot, usually a bowline. Find a solid smooth chunk of a branch and put it under the intersection of the loop and bite that make a bowline. Never chopped a knot apart after learning this.
it’s not for me but does have merit.
it’s not for me but does have merit.
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
From another angle of view,
If so confident in life support tool chain
>>then therefore even more so confident in all oodles of things
>>especially at high strength
Life support is just 1 limited usage audience
>>if efficiency of retained strength is great enough for overhead of production etc.
>>or Hail Mary rig when no other way and shows is max efficiency of usage when up to bat
>>or even just best practices
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i'm olds-cool with Tom tho, prefer not even a hardware toggle pin release in life support tool chain, and then padlock is too much.
Ours is not a pristine environment snafu wise anymore than grit wise ; too much going on in chance enviros and shituations thrown into with other random players and not all human, and even if so not all equipped with ears or brain. Some of which have opposites disease of always wrong timing/place or just wrong.. Then the other extreme 'ergonomic' risk range is complacency from real daily/hourly familiarity..
That being said, even if used in lowering, especially if pre-fixed w/Half-Hitch would probably be safe, but just not where i commonly deploy quick release...
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Kinda hail more from the mantra of:
Maintain high, visible inspirational, exemplary, 'holy' handling of life chain gear and it's deployment. To maintain such a crisp unquestionable reverence that persists with others when you aren't around etc. Take all opportunities to prove this thing, like wannabe in bar; only solidly for real , and raising the bar.
>>then dribbles down thru to all rigging gear, equipment respect etc. as now doable care level, and in practiced power band, not tattered fringe edge of power band of maybe hood (or need to move to different neighborhood)...
So, to that measure, no quick release for lifeline tool chain in standard usage.
If so confident in life support tool chain
>>then therefore even more so confident in all oodles of things
>>especially at high strength
Life support is just 1 limited usage audience
>>if efficiency of retained strength is great enough for overhead of production etc.
>>or Hail Mary rig when no other way and shows is max efficiency of usage when up to bat
>>or even just best practices
.
i'm olds-cool with Tom tho, prefer not even a hardware toggle pin release in life support tool chain, and then padlock is too much.
Ours is not a pristine environment snafu wise anymore than grit wise ; too much going on in chance enviros and shituations thrown into with other random players and not all human, and even if so not all equipped with ears or brain. Some of which have opposites disease of always wrong timing/place or just wrong.. Then the other extreme 'ergonomic' risk range is complacency from real daily/hourly familiarity..
That being said, even if used in lowering, especially if pre-fixed w/Half-Hitch would probably be safe, but just not where i commonly deploy quick release...
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Kinda hail more from the mantra of:
Maintain high, visible inspirational, exemplary, 'holy' handling of life chain gear and it's deployment. To maintain such a crisp unquestionable reverence that persists with others when you aren't around etc. Take all opportunities to prove this thing, like wannabe in bar; only solidly for real , and raising the bar.
>>then dribbles down thru to all rigging gear, equipment respect etc. as now doable care level, and in practiced power band, not tattered fringe edge of power band of maybe hood (or need to move to different neighborhood)...
So, to that measure, no quick release for lifeline tool chain in standard usage.
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Brocky and the rest of the gang. Here's a video of some of what's going on out there.
First, thanks. Just so you understand, my plan for the BEST order for my actions with this discovery went like this:
1. Before publishing it, do everything possible to understand how it MIGHT be used. This includes life safety applications including rescue, as i have a couple rescue experts in my group, who always cause me to think of things from a different angle. Right now, this list is wide open.
2. Understand it's properties and how any variations might change them. Pause here for a second: I have not showed you how to safely use this in a Rappel. But there are several ways to do so. I simply don't want to have that conversation yet because we are too early in the process. But i don't want it ruled out.
3. Before releasing the hitch to the public, do as much research as possible to determine if it already has been published. To the best of my ability, I have completed this step and moved on to Step 4.
4. Publish how to tie the basic knot. Don't say what to use it for.
5. Involve others to everything possible to find out if it has been published. This is where we are right now. So far, nothing has surfaced.
6. Steps after this are not clear to me. I know they will involve testing, and I know they will involve me releasing additional information. I am gonna take my cues from Agent Smith and the IGKT on that. For example, I have already learned a lot about what comprises meaningful testing.
One of the problems I have dealt with in the past and am seeing in this thread is that it's human nature to think about the world we live in and not others. However, the number of new arborists learning to climb trees this year is probably about the same number as it was last year and the year before that. But the number of new hunters learning to climb trees is EXPLODING with the saddle hunting boom, and the stuff i am seeing is scary. Look for YouTubes on One Stick method for saddle hunting. Look at the size of the subscriber list and the number of views. The Stein/Stone knot and Fiddlestick for releaseable anchor systems is now circulating as a good addition for the system so that we can retrieve our canopy anchor after a stick climb. This worries me. I can set THIS hitch in a manner where it can't practically be released under load... only when load is removed. I simply can't publicize that information yet, because if I show it to you, I show it to them and the basic knot has not yet been tested. So please bear with me as we get to the next steps. If you feel like tying it, that would be cool. If you want to see more information, such as the details for how to make it locked under load (without a beaner) send me a private message. And thanks.
With all other variables held constant, I believe that the climbers in these climbing systems who are using a Stone/Stein knot and fiddlestick would prefer a hitch with the JRB hitch properties, and that it would be safer. I believe the stone knot idea came into favor with the tree stick climbers via from rock climbing vids like this. But this method is now being used as a retrieveable Rappel system and gaining popularity and that worries me.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Arborists have developed so many ways of retrieving a rap/descent line using throwline. They are not slipped and have been used and critiqued for a longggggg time. Most can be tied as a choked setup. Many can be used with a ring/ring FC too.
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
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