Screw gate Carabiner for rigging Question(s) and rigging concepts!

i didn't use the 'boot' wrap too much, specifically on some stiff line to give some forgiveness and experimentation, think box etc.
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This is another pic of what i did much more to evade tight choke bending Standing part support column of small dyneema sling on Foins krab for more and simpler strength , aiming for straighter geometric support legs to load AND free-ranging sling rotating Naturally to even wear.
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Foins.png

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Note how if just 1 leg kicks thru gate, still safe! Takes double fault to compromise!
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A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. i'd keep these krab sets ready on their modular connection end. i played with this style below on the load end, trying once again to evade the harsher bend of the sole columns of support legs by the choke action that pulls ACROSS the support columns like a KNOT, rather than pulling more properly ALONG the support legs like a SPLICE.
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load-side-of-sling-alt-choke-hold-theory.png

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Several theories here for think tank and usage.
In actual most usage, went with the free-ranging Round Turn on Foins w/wire-tie strategy.
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But all these noted forces are REAL players to be aware of , and craft around them as needed!
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As a separate safety issue/warning. ANY captive eye or soft bound (tied) sling strategy, RISKS sling appearing to be okay, but could shear off if leg has kicked thru gate. Note if this happened and sling simply on simple krab, sling disarms and falls off; but if captive/bound to krab, can't disarm until overloaded causing load to drop... Boot strategy in prev.post gives spacer that more easily flags this condition (must still watch for). Round Turn on krab strategy has more forgiveness as need double fault, w/o remediation to completely shear off. Bound captives (sewn etc.) do not allow free ranging for even wear.
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krab_loading_captive.png
 
This thread is making my head hurt. We are doing tree-work here and not building a linear accelerator? Pick a biner and rope/sling that are rated above your needs, make sure your gate (auto-lock or twist-lock) is aligned and properly secure, cut the fucking piece, and move onto the next one?
 
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It seems like extending the sling connection by the SuperTramp method would also delay it from cutting into itself, which happens when girthing webbing.
 
We build temporary support structures, to then support and possibly swing something on the fly.
>>this is in every way, support architecture of what or portions of what weight we don't 'bomb out'.
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TOTALLY separate, please note safety warning of captive eye/slings please..
Simple Round Turn on krab with Dyneema might be worth a look..
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When not in a comfy powerband, and looking to tweak; these i think are the key element models to watch, or even on the fly decisions beyond usual setups, or jsut seeing other very favorable path offered; if ride w/o blinders.
Also, what key factors to watch for in ALL things. As to say, this isn't reaching for a separate tedious volume on each act; but rather the simple, pervading, inescapable pivotal root principles that define all these things we do; all at once.
>>the long way home, equates to Round Turn around Standing Part column in knots for more strength. Cat's Paw on hook for same; strain relief grommet on electrical cord to cover same change position in it's 'Standing Part', flairs in fittings , trunk flare, parent ball socket swell round branch (in my region, most pro-nounced in Live Oaks )etc. All the same to some extent; l-earn abut 1 from itself and the others too!!
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thus, Leveraged Learning of fewest things, that define all that radiate from them into our world; if we can firmly grab the root defining elements if can make the connections. THEN, each act is not just experience in one thing, but very many; IF can make the connection(s).
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To me, this is all really competing 'forcepoints'.
>>Wood, metal, rope etc. are just weightless architecture support model connecting forcepoints.
ALL the geometry of these structures are ruled by same rules.
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Choose your strategies with an informed mind, and also know the possible contradictions to spot.
>>polish your chosen workflow to smooth ballet of motions from muscle memory
>>then let eyes watch as separate inspector demanding proper grooming, playing devil's advocate of what ifs as eyes critique like boss and worker in one.
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Maybe not use each strategy shown, but please see consistency for pervading pattern that all the stories reflect; sometimes only viewable if take deeper into pivotal requirements.
>>So may not stretch into every nuance of efficiency, but being able to see and read it properly is best education; Google has shown that data can be king.
Also, many times may only find better, by reaching for it;.and at least viewing it to know if that is a way you'd like to go etc.
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Try not to be prisoner of Plato's cave.
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Many things i saw elders do in cooking, pulling, wrenching etc. with such focus and intent that i knew i was missing something. In later years have been able to re-visit these undigested mental pics and now see what the point of focus was and how important.
 
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rico said:
This thread is making my head hurt. We are doing tree-work here and not building a linear accelerator? Pick a biner and rope/sling that are rated above your needs, make sure your gate (auto-lock or twist-lock) is aligned and properly secure, cut the fucking piece, and move onto the next one?
Click to expand...

I am with rico here. Could just tie a knot. I tend to focus on tree strength when rigging. Gear is the easy part.

Tony
 
Tony said:
I am with rico here. Could just tie a knot. I tend to focus on tree strength when rigging. Gear is the easy part.

Tony
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Yep. I generally use biners when speed lining, otherwise I tie knots. I come from the school of thought that the less shit in the chain to go wrong is always a good thing, and simpler is almost always better.
 
One of the biggest advances I ever made was surpassing slings only for speed line mindset handed down.
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The amount of things I found to do with them once committed to always carrying for: presets just waiting for rig line back, several drops on 1 line, steering, increasing/decreasing rope friction paths, using 1load change balance of primary target, handle, hand holds, foot stirrup, drink holder, redirect life line, extensions ,emergencies , pulley on load etc. Even connect straight to saddle as most stabilizing connection, but not part of legal 2 count. Sometimes use same krab/sling set several times in a row for varied reasons, smoothly and efficient transitions. Even throw outward from tree at rite time as visible penalty flag when loud chipper etc. Some times sling krab in butt tie position and rig line thru farther out crotch (before C.o.G ) on load, then back to me under load to connect to krab. Gives mid tie off type balance w/o extra time and work. Then if crotch thrown rig line is to left, will help to torque right etc.
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Truly, truly a modular, flexible work flow that yielded more speed, options, smoothness, growth, confidence etc., once commuted to.
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There is something to be said for lean and clean, few joints as possible.
But, beside some raw meatlog drops of rope only, otherwise would see the pro-modular sling/krab/eye system offered by mountain/rescue and virtually any other real production rigging disciplines as optimal.
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Usually would always have steel krab in DBY on rig line , and if not krab/sling to DBY, use weight of krab to throw around target for 1or2 preceding half's.
 
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Tony said:
I am with rico here. Could just tie a knot. I tend to focus on tree strength when rigging. Gear is the easy part.

Tony
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In other threads I've spoken the same words and you chose to say you like knotles and post a video about your gravitional anarchy how knotless is great. So what gives.. do you and other wise people who obviously know better than the rest of us choose to be different no matter what. What harm is there in this conversation?. I like your perspective in this last post I quoted here. Your right the gear is the easy. The places I work in require me to stay engaged in my thought process.. and change my rigging scheme seamlessly with as little labor as possible for everyone involved in the operation. What I'm trying to say is why did you post this here? To highlight that the tree will fail before the unscrewed shut crab or your just buzz killin or....? I'm interested
 
rico said:
Yep. I generally use biners when speed lining, otherwise I tie knots. I come from the school of thought that the less shit in the chain to go wrong is always a good thing, and simpler is almost always better.
Click to expand...
Rico rico oh rico I wish I worked in the great wide open sometimes but then again how would I become a master rigger if alls I has to do was throw a crab and sling around a limb and zip it down a line to the back of the chipper everytime.. I keep it simple stupid.
 
Treetopflyer said:
In other threads I've spoken the same words and you chose to say you like knotles and post a video about your gravitional anarchy how knotless is great. So what gives.. do you and other wise people who obviously know better than the rest of us choose to be different no matter what. What harm is there in this conversation?. I like your perspective in this last post I quoted here. Your right the gear is the easy. The places I work in require me to stay engaged in my thought process.. and change my rigging scheme seamlessly with as little labor as possible for everyone involved in the operation. What I'm trying to say is why did you post this here? To highlight that the tree will fail before the unscrewed shut crab or your just buzz killin or....? I'm interested
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Your reading too much into it. As a professional I do not like carabiners as terminations for rigging lines. That is not to say I think it’s wrong, just one more possible fail point I prefer to eliminate in my work plan. It is also a technique I see much abused, as in used poorly. For me “knotless” rigging is sterling barc slings and the backbone. Love that set up.

As for using any carabiner no matter the gate in other aspects of rigging ( not rigging line termination that is) it all comes down to interface and application. I certaily would not knock a climber who scored a deal on a bunch of screw gate carabiners as uses them to rig. Can’t say as I would not do the same.

There is no harm in the conversation I just agree with rico. Much ado.... and find it amusing the amount of verbiage spent on a screw gate carabiner. Only climbing production arborists could put this much effort into a simple screw gate! I find it funny and a bit tragic at the same time. At what point did we totally geek out!

My comment about gear being the easy part is just that, an observation and an attempt to remind all of us, that the tree is also part of the system. Sometimes that simple fact gets lost.

The best advice I ever got on tree removal and rigging came from Dr. Coder years ago. He told me over lunch “Tony, if your gunna take a tree apart, take it apart the way it was put together.” The philosopher in me grabbed that and ran. It has been a guiding principle for me as production arborist for a long time.

Charge on. I’ll quip away as necessary. My girls seem to be on the “slow train” this afternoon. Think I’ll have a beer as I wait on them.

Tony
 
*useless info* said:
One of the biggest advances I ever made was surpassing slings only for speed line mindset handed down.
.
The amount of things I found to do with them once committed to always carrying for: presets just waiting for rig line back, several drops on 1 line, steering, increasing/decreasing rope friction paths, using 1load change balance of primary target, handle, hand holds, foot stirrup, drink holder, redirect life line, extensions ,emergencies , pulley on load etc. Even connect straight to saddle as most stabilizing connection, but not part of legal 2 count. Sometimes use same krab/sling set several times in a row for varied reasons, smoothly and efficient transitions. Some times sling krab in butt tie position and rig line thru farther out crotch (before C.o.G ) on load, then back to me under load to connect to krab. Gives mid tie off type balance w/o extra time and work. Then if crotch thrown rig line is to left, will help to torque right etc.
.
Truly, truly a modular, flexible work flow that yielded more speed, options, smoothness, growth, confidence etc., once commuted to.
.
There is something to be said for lean and clean, few joints as possible.
But, beside some raw meatlog drops of rope only, otherwise would see the pro-modular sling/krab/eye system offered by mountain/rescue and virtually any other real production rigging disciplines as optimal.
.
Usually would always have steel krab in DBY on rig line , and if not krab/sling to DBY, use weight of krab to throw around target for 1or2 preceding half's.
Click to expand...
Tony said:
Your reading too much into it. As a professional I do not like carabiners as terminations for rigging lines. That is not to say I think it’s wrong, just one more possible fail point I prefer to eliminate in my work plan. It is also a technique I see much abused, as in used poorly. For me “knotless” rigging is sterling barc slings and the backbone. Love that set up.

As for using any carabiner no matter the gate in other aspects of rigging ( not rigging line termination that is) it all comes down to interface and application. I certaily would not knock a climber who scored a deal on a bunch of screw gate carabiners as uses them to rig. Can’t say as I would not do the same.

There is no harm in the conversation I just agree with rico. Much ado.... and find it amusing the amount of verbiage spent on a screw gate carabiner. Only climbing production arborists could put this much effort into a simple screw gate! I find it funny and a bit tragic at the same time. At what point did we totally geek out!

My comment about gear being the easy part is just that, an observation and an attempt to remind all of us, that the tree is also part of the system. Sometimes that simple fact gets lost.

The best advice I ever got on tree removal and rigging came from Dr. Coder years ago. He told me over lunch “Tony, if your gunna take a tree apart, take it apart the way it was put together.” The philosopher in me grabbed that and ran. It has been a guiding principle for me as production arborist for a long time.

Charge on. I’ll quip away as necessary. My girls seem to be on the “slow train” this afternoon. Think I’ll have a beer as I wait on them.

Tony
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I see feel ya Tony.. The amount of verbiage,really ,Dont you write books? I appreciate all the observation and perspective. The way a tree can be made strong when loaded properly is a part of the rigging for sure. But soo much more interface beyond that exists, as well, as you know. I've preset slings on my way up in between cut points and cut my way back down it takes foresight to plan this correctly, it doesn't evolve from not trying new things. Could have just used the old 3 strand over a crotch. Which works great alot of the time by the way...im talking a system thats a speedline , lowering line , double whipping do it all in one structure cause you have to type system so your not there all fucking day ,with flexibility to adapt to the circumstance with flow and less time and energy spent while increasing the level of safety through the plan. No its not new news no I didnt invent it I'm not trying to reinvent fizzicks with it.. I like the quote nature to be commanded must be obeyed and it plays well with dr. Coders I believe.. Tree work doesnt have to be any certain way all day any day it can be all things in one tree for one piece of one tree for one peculiar circumstance of the tree to achieve a goal right.. Like floating a piece looking like magic and puttin it where its gotta be. Or just cut fucking piece and move on to the next I guess. Choice is ours! Enjoy the beer and the day with fam!
 
Treetopflyer said:
Rico rico oh rico I wish I worked in the great wide open sometimes but then again how would I become a master rigger if alls I has to do was throw a crab and sling around a limb and zip it down a line to the back of the chipper everytime.. I keep it simple stupid.
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Seeing as your a"Master Rigger" I was thinking I would like to hire/pay you to come out down here and give us a MasterClass on Master Rigging. I was gonna do a 180-ft back leaning Fir over at Old Kenjockety in the next week or so, but instead I thought it would be cool if we made a video of you masterfully dismantling this shaggy P.O.S. using some of your Master Rigging techniques.

Now you would think that after over 40 yrs of being a removal guy working with small urban arb outfits, big urban arb outfits, big and small not so urban arb outfits, high production logging outfits, and not so high production logging outfit that I would have somehow managed to acquire more rigging skills than simply speed lining brush to a chipper chute? Apparently not? Stupid is as Stupid does I guess?

Now the trees down here can be no joke to the uninitiated so before we proceed I need to ask you a few questions.
1. Can you cut for shit? If not we needn't go any further.
2. Are you cool wedging over a 40 ft back leaning log in 42 inches of wood from 110 ft? Not a big deal, but if you loose it over backwards you will cut a very old historic cabin in half, and the local community will most likely bury you in the woods after they cut of your genitals. No pressure bro!
3. Can you promise me that you wont get uncomfortable and want to come down after you get over 135-140 ft and your still in sizable wood? Nothing pisses me off more than a shit-talker coming down here, wimping out, bailing out of a tree, and making me have to do his fucking job.

Please ponder this amazing idea as I believe the the entire arb community would benefit from and rejoice in gleeful thankfulness if you were to grace us all with a Master Rigging Master Class video!
 
Did you just invite me over ? I've been waiting for that. I'll buy a go pro just for you and show you what I'm talking about. To be clear im not trying to convey im a master rigger , I'd like to think I dismantle trees as safely and responsive as possible. After I've been at it 40 years , I'm half way there almost, I'd like to think I'm on my way to what someone very well learned in the art may say he sure does make that look easy. But that's not really what I'm worried about, unlike some people. I'm worried about doing the right thing for the crew making it easy as possible, and the people I serve, having some fun along the way.
 
I can't believe you guys are having so much trouble spelling a simple word like "fizzix". You must be stressed out from hauling those huge nutsacks up a tree.

Now, I've got to go do a removal on a 375' coconut tree, using only a Poulan lawn tractor, a box of screwgate carabiners and a bunch of slings made from cut up Fruit of the Loom underwear.
 
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Treetopflyer said:
Did you just invite me over ? I've been waiting for that. I'll buy a go pro just for you and show you what I'm talking about. To be clear im not trying to convey im a master rigger , I'd like to think I dismantle trees as safely and responsive as possible. After I've been at it 40 years , I'm half way there almost, I'd like to think I'm on my way to what someone very well learned in the art may say he sure does make that look easy. But that's not really what I'm worried about, unlike some people. I'm worried about doing the right thing for the crew making it easy as possible, and the people I serve, having some fun along the way.
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As someone who is very learned and quite accomplished in the fine art of shit-talkin', I can say that you sure make it look easy TreeTop!
 
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JeffGu said:
I can't believe you guys are having so much trouble spelling a simple word like "fizzix". You must be stressed out from hauling those huge nutsacks up a tree.

Now, I've got to go do a removal on a 375' coconut tree, using only a Poulan lawn tractor, a box of screwgate carabiners and a bunch of slings made from cut up Fruit of the Loom underwear.
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I,m extremely sorry Mr Gu. but I cocked blocked you on that 375" coconut removal job and handled it without screw gates, underwear, or lawnmowers. Nothing but a single speed line sling and this bad mammerjammer!

IMG_1672.JPG
 
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