Say it ain't so....

Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Wow, I'm glad nobody can argue if the stumps gone or not. Well, Its happened a few times, but I just dig deeper and make more of a mess. I hate seeing tree's topped. I'm no arborist, but I can look at a tree and figure out whats good for it. My customers are amazed when I tell them "just have it cabled and trimmed up, don't cut it down" However I do like to encourge removals :) Yeah, each situation has its reasons. I found out a long time ago its way better to make friends with your competion than enimes. We are all in this together, And with each others help we each get further ahead and better ourselves.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

It isn't easy to walk away from a job specially in hard times. Yes, it is up to employees to say enough and to stand up for their legal rights but at the end of the day you still need to pay the bills. It's a tough situation to be in.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

As an employer I can tell you that most definitely you can not send someone home and not pay them for hours worked. You also can not fine them for damage to equipment. If I call them in and 2 hours later, it rains, they get paid for that. As far as a suspension, I have had a few employees that were great for the most part do some pretty dumb things several times due to "head up the butt syndrome" and I gave them a few days off and told them I wanted them to think about how to improve. They were told that if they wanted they could look for a new job during that time. Whether that is legal or not, I believe that it was necessary. I have also let guys go for attempting to steal equipment they said was lost. Like hiding an 020 deep in the bushes so they could come back and get it at a later date. This was in the beginning of my buisiness. I have some great guys now. As an employer, it is crazy the crap you deal with.
And as far as not topping that tree, I am guessing your employer could fire you for direct defiance, but we dont top trees, so I would never demand something like that out of an employee. The only time I ever demanded anything was when I went to check the guys on a job and a really good climber of mine was done with a large oak tree that looked perfect except for a large dead limb at the top he somehow missed, it was very visible, and I asked him to get back up there and get it. He said"F#$k you" I went and got it and fired him. I felt bad, it was 102 degrees that day and the last tree of the day, he was justwore out. I rehired him 2 days later. He understood that it was unacceptable to behave that way, and I realized I needed to be more patient.
It is funny, employer or employee we all make dumb mistakes and decisions.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Also damaged, lost, or stolen equipment is for the insurance companies, and it is definitely unacceptable to "fine" anyone for such things. Alot of employers think they can get away with that and no one will say anything because they value their job more than a few bucks. It is still illegal.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

WOW!! I am a very competitive and principal centered person,who believes in doing what is right no matter what. Sometimes it is painful!!
Am I alone here in how uncomfortable I am with the airing of someones soiled sheets and then rubbing there noses in it? ,in public?! I am really interested in some feedback on this . Maybe I am growing soft in my old age?!
Believe me when I see the kind of work some guys do it makes me wanna hurl, and I feel very bad that a client paid for bad work!!!! But I am not sure I like this concept? Please help!!
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Just wondering I dont normally charge my employees for broken equipment.But where do you draw the line if its chronic or negligent behavior or just plain irresponsibilty.I once was a employee and if I broke something I would normally pay for it.If is was something that could not be avoided at know fault of my own I would not.I would actually volunteer to pay for things or tools I broke if it was my fault and could of been avoided.Why should my employer pay for something I just broke.Responsibility goes both ways.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

It looks like termination, suspension or disciplinary action for neglect, fraud or other such acts needs to be dealt with by company policy unless your state has specific laws addressing this.

A company employment policy needs to be drafted and signed by each employee. The contents of which would outline all expectations on the job pertaining to hours, dress code, time of arrival, behaviour on the job (i.e., swearing, smoking, drinking, etc...), care of equipment and property, reporting, fraudulent or negligent behaviour and, discplinary actions for non-compliance.

Spell it out, have it signed, then there is no dispute as to whether or not it is "legal". Obviously, a lawyer specializing in this field would be good to consult or have review your draft.

As for FT, Jersey it is an "at-will" state, meaning they can fire you for any reason as long as it isn't "illegal"

Illegal is as follows:
Discrimination and Wrongful Termination

Employers are not allowed to terminate or discriminate against employees for the following reasons:

* Age
* Race
* Sex
* Religion
* National origin
* Disability
* Pregnancy

It's illegal for an employer to consider these characteristics with regard to:

* Promotions
* Job assignments
* Termination
* Wages

And it's illegal for an employer to terminate an employee:

* For refusing to break a law
* In retaliation for filing a discrimination or safety claim
* For taking leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act
* Without following its own stated procedure or policy
* For reasons not contained in the employment contract, if one exists

There is nothing regarding suspension with or without pay.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Jimmy and Treehumper, I am not exactly sure what the law is about suspension, even here in oklahoma.(I guess I should find out) But lets say that after a job a chip truck is loaded with wood(after a removal) and a piece falls out on the road and damages a car, in Oklahoma I can not take the damages out of the pay of the employees on that crew. Absolutely I cant. even though they should have loaded the truck and made sure that it was secure. I can fire them all for it, but not take the money out of their pay. My [bad word] would be in a sling if I did.

And Jimmy, I agree, where do you draw the line. It is hard to say. Once again I believe that I could fire them for destroying equipment, but I can not deduct the cost from their check. All of my employees would take the hit because they realize it was their stupid mistake, but my guys are awesome, and that type of thing happens so little(in fact I dont remember the last time that it happened) that I would probably cover it. But if you read my last post, I have suspended people for a few days to think about their actions and how to improve them. I really had no choice, fire them or make it hard on them. I t is really hard for me because I am the type of employer who respects his employees and I like to have fun at work, I dont like having to discipline or "ride" anyone. If I have to "ride" somebody, I let them go because it ruins the atmosphere that I try so hard to promote. Which is "Lets have as much fun as you can at work and still accomplish a lot."

As far as suspension, the last situation I can even remember was that one of the best climbers I have ever had put three small limbs through three different roofs in a month. He had been offered a fall line and refused it. He thought he could hold and cut and pitch the limbs into a safe zone and they got away from him. Didnt cost me alot of money to get the fist sized holes fixed, but I had to send him a message, and I hated to do that. He has not made a mistake like that in years. He still works for me and is my best production climber.

Taitree, this is ridiculous, I cannot believe the laundry that gets aired here. My motto is praise in public and discipline in private.
smile.gif
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Disciplinary actions need to be outlined in the employee handbook and signed off on. That way everyone knows what the expectations and consequences of failing to live up to them are. This of course needs to be inline with the laws of the state.

In your example it could fall under negligence at work and be dealt with by the manner you outline. Making someone pay out of pocket for something that would normally be covered under an insurance policy is unfair at the least. In high school, I worked as a car jockey. We had a clear policy dealing with accidents. First one was free, after that the deductible was paid by the employee, with incremental increases with the next 2 accidents and then termination.

Clear, easy to understand and applied to all.

I like your atmosphere!
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

Regardless, Im willing to bet, if you punch in and work a half day, you are legally entitled to your pay for that half day no matter the reason for being sent home. To say halfway through the day, "go home without your days pay" (or wages earned up until that point) is illegal in any state Id bet.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

That is true tophopper. He is owed for the hours he put in.

It's time FT, move on to a a company that will appreciate your skills and integrity.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

I don't agree Stig. I believe this type of work should be made into a thread about how our work should not be done. Who would argue that this Elm is better now? It isn't about who is better, rather right from wrong. We all need to be pointed in the right direction sometimes, even if it's hard to swallow.

Cam, I understand the frustration, but you don't really need to call someone out for doing the work. Pointing out how bad the work is and howm it should not be done is a good thing. Pointing to a competitor might not be best.

Marc, good for you to move on. You will be better off for doing so. Keep us posted on where you decide to go
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree Stig. I believe this type of work should be made into a thread about how our work should not be done. Who would argue that this Elm is better now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't disagree with that, Mark.
However, if you reread the first two posts, that didn't seem to be the intention.
At least it didn't to me.
To me it seemed to be more about posting a picture of somebody elses work, and then rubbing the guys nose in it.

Then again, maybe I'm just too sensitive.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

It was't my intention to have his name called out. I thought FT would just reconize the work and his companies sign in the distance. Thought I would have goten a PM from him about what went on. True I am frustrated with seeing this work on several occasions. I just thought it would make FT feel more accountable knowing that other tree guys are seeing the kind of work they are doing. If I have stepped out of line with this thread, again it wasn't my intention. I'm the last guy that likes conflict or to be negative.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

I know the frustration as well!! How many times has a client wanted severe topping and you spend time educating them on the EEVILLS of topping , give them the appropriate literature,they smile and nod and you feel as though you made a connection only to drive by three weeks later to see the thing WACKED!!
When i see that it makes me insane because I know the customer got rooked!! However at that point I still do not call the guy and rip his [bad word]. Unless maybe I know him well. I just know the treego some guys have and do not want it to turn bad or look like a snob! Most guys know by now they should not be doing it ....... the fact is they just do not give a rats but!! Are we really going to changes a person like that?! THat is why I focus on client education. I feel if one client at a time we can reduce the call for this kind of work then some day it will just disappear!!??
Thoughts, am i naive here?
By the way everyone TREEGO is a word I invented about 20 years ago for a treemans ego. It comes with a certain conotation. I think you all get it ? Maybe we can have some fun with this on another thread.
 
Re: Say it ain\'t so....

All this beating around the bush and still Cam can't say he's sorry for being an [bad word]?
 
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