rope placement while blocking down a trunk

Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Nailed it TreeCo! there are probably some other reasons, but those are the biggies!

I don't know what the trees look like in Dubrovnik, Croatia so I don't know what the G-spot is up against on a daily basis. I have picked, however, up a bit of the local dendrology and tree biology through tree dissections in college courses and having a really cool job. There are times when I think a high TIP on a spar is a good idea, times when it's a bad idea.

I've formulated my own opinion about this without the influence of others...
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I guess you´re all not so absent minded as I am. Once I almost cut out a top I was attached to!!! Since then I always retie before even thinking of cutting. Anyway I don´t think the piece will fail if you cut a normal notch in it.
Svein
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Hmm. It would seem that Groveritis has struck again.
As far as I'm concerned, your all fools for argueing with someone who has absolutely NO credibility. Grover's comments are'nt borderline offensive, they are HIGHLY offensive.
Guys who've been in the business 30 years have been doing it wrong for 30 years? I'd love to see grover tell that to their faces.
I have often used the technique discribed, with no ill effects.
Like all actions in treework, its a calculated risk, that experience and training will prepare you for.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Didn´t argue, just shared an experience. You all do just whatever you´d like, my fuzzy head makes it imperative for me to have foolproof routines.
Cheers
Svein
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I have tried that technique after hearing about it and truthfully it made me uncomfortable. Not at all worried about the tree breaking, that sounds like an impossible scenario. I did not like cutting with all those lines around me though. To each his own, Never say Never.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
this technique is no more dangerous than any other technique when carried out without due care and attention

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more dangerous precisely for the reason that you are cutting away wood that is supporting you via the lifeline tied in overhead.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
I have tried that technique after hearing about it and truthfully it made me uncomfortable.

[/ QUOTE ]

And so it should my friend, so it should, that is your instinctive survival mechanism kicking in right there, and you should listen to it.

Your ancestors certainly did that's why you are here today Mr Tree Bing


[ QUOTE ]
Not at all worried about the tree breaking, that sounds like an impossible scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not that impossible, cut away some good wood and hit a pocket of decay or a cavity and the stem may break, better not take any chances, yeah?

[ QUOTE ]
I did not like cutting with all those lines around me though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes your right, especially when using bigger saws, trying to make a notch, the rope is bound to get in the way. Good point.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Once I almost cut out a top I was attached to!!! Since then I always retie before even thinking of cutting.
Svein

[/ QUOTE ]

Another voice of sanity in a world gone mad.

I totally agree with you Tree Bear.

You are 100% right.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]

As far as I'm concerned, your all fools for argueing with someone who has absolutely NO credibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

I would never call Tom, Mahk, Nick, Riggs, Zac etc 'fools'. You stepped over the line by calling these people 'fools' you'd better delete that post, or you may be ostracised by a influential online community for all time.

Me? I have never called anyone a fool, I just think the technique is foolish.

[ QUOTE ]

Grover's comments are'nt borderline offensive, they are HIGHLY offensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as well you never went to my high school, you'd have lasted 5 mins at most. Stop being so bloody sensitive. I thought you were a tough guy with big old chainsaw on your shoulder?

[ QUOTE ]

Guys who've been in the business 30 years have been doing it wrong for 30 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've taken that right out of context Ed, I said I've worked with guys of 30 years experience who've been doing it wrong, I wasn't implying that anyone here is like that.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see grover tell that to their faces.

[/ QUOTE ] I have, and they listened and understood what I was saying, some of them respect me for it, and changed their ways and some of them ignored me, cause I damaged their precious little egos. I love it when someone shows me a safer way of doing something that I never thought of, it's liberating to know that you don't have all the answers. Show some humility Ed, you don't know it all.

[ QUOTE ]
I have often used the technique discribed, with no ill effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does'nt mean to say it is right does it? If your kids took up treeclimbing would you teach them this technique?

[ QUOTE ]

Like all actions in treework, its a calculated risk, that experience and training will prepare you for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know any trainers that would openly advocate this as a safer technique than 2 tie ins below for trainee climbing arborists.

I would not want to prepare people for this technique as it is a folly, and people who expouse it and recommend it's use are doing the industry no favours whatsoever.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
The secret to Grover is to put him on IGNORE.

He's awesome, then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Hussein and Pol Pot did, they tried to silence people who did not agree with them.

I know your not as bad as these tyrants MB, so please try to be more understanding to my viewpoints. Your usual kneejerk responses to safety issues within the climbing community worry me.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Grover , straight up . I'm not kidding you . I 'd make you look sick in a tree .

[/ QUOTE ]

No Riggs you'd make be 'be sick', sick with worry for my fellow climber.

Your confidence is admirable and I respect you for it.

I know you've been climbing trees since Roosevelt was in office, and I understand that you know what you can get away with.

But I am talking about making the industry safer for everyone.

Now, would the industry be safer if this technique was phased out?

IOf course it would, it would make the industry safer cause people would stop cutting away wood that is supporting them.

C'mon Riggs, the times they are a changing.
smirk.gif
 
Dangerous Technique Alert!

In Mark Chisholm's article, "Tie in Technique too Troublesome to Title"
Mark describes the process of rigging a block and the tie in technique,

<font color="brown">"When rigging wood into a block, attach the rigging block directly below your choked off climbing line. After the block is in place, carefully cut the notch just above your lanyard"</font>

Mark then goes onto to say,

<font color="brown"> "Another handy tip shared by Ken Palmer is to tie the running bow or equivalent, with a long tail so that you may rappel to your next work position, and attach the rigging while hanging on your harness. Then simply tug on the tail of the running bowline and it should slide down so that you may adjust it at your new position.</font>

Notice how Mark tells us that Ken says, "attach the rigging".

No where does it say, "attach the rigging and cut a notch"

Now whose gonna tell me Mark Chisholm and Ken Palmer are wrong not to include the phrase "cut a notch"?

Why would Mark writing this article on rigging a spar not include the phrase, 'Cut a notch" at this point in the description of the technique?

Because it's dangerous? Perhaps?

Mark's "Tie in Technique too Troublesome to Title" article

Second page, first two columns of text, last paragraph.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!

Or...the techinque has evolved since the article was written

Or...the technique for cutting the notch while hanging from above demands more description than the article could provide.

Or...many other reasons.

I remember seeing the technique being filmed for inclusion in The Art and Science of Practical Rigging but I can't remember if it made it into the series.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I'm surprised so many guys care so much what Grover says. He's got an opinion just like everyone else, but he presents his in a pedantic way which makes it easy to dismiss, I would think.

Riggs, that's cool about your father's buisness...ya gotta love treeguys who come from that much experience. Its hard to argue with a record of long term survival and longevity in this business... to last physically and financially is an accomplishment worthy of great respectIMO. Judging from the posts and pics of guys like you and TodK, Mark, Sawdust(where's Teti been?), Mike Poor and others, who seem to blend new techniques with lots of basic old school experience to get large challenging removals and pruning done successfully, there's an awful lot of knowledge and ability there. And I for one appreciate being able to be access it and learn from it on TB.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I've used this technique lots of times and it is a real energy saver. When you're blocking down large trunk sections it really helps. The area where Riggs is from has lots and lots of really, really big trees. I believe that he does know what he's talking about but I only have 32 years of experience.

P.S. Seems like a lot of bickering over one simple question, doesnt it?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

What I'm saying is Mark Chisholm never included this technique in his article.

He specifically said to make the notch cut after you have disconnected the overhead tie in point and re-choked the running bow just above the rigging block.

I would just like to know why?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

maybe because it was an article for basic rigging for newbies? i wouldnt personally advocate this technique to inexperienced newbies
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

This is quite a significant issue. I’ve used the technique plenty of times in the past while pulling of de-limbed fat sections and wouldn’t totally discard using it again, but would I encourage anyone else to use it ?… no absolutely not, there’s just not enough to gain.

The only benefit of using this method is the extra stability while aligning you saw cuts, and if that’s such a big problem, then you really need to work on your notching technique.

I have heard several stories of this situation turning bad, mostly with young guys, who may well have been capable but were lacking in maturity which should be one of the biggest considerations when training or assigning responsibility to youngster’s.

One guy I heard was lucky that the section hit the ground before taking up all the slack, another was catapulted 40 feet, I don’t know if he survived. Those incidents were 15+ years ago so I don’t know if or where they were documented, but I believed them to be true. It happened again about a year ago-ish to a friend of mine, only he was the groundsman and happened to catch site of the incident before it went bad, and again the climber was a talented but young guy with a point to prove.

Its like the one-handling and notched spar thing, I will admit that I do both and believe that I’m skillful and experienced enough to know when they are safe to use, but I couldn’t encourage either and be able to maintain peace of mind..

Lets say you send one of your crews out and the climber fells a section that he’s tied into with the worst outcome. Before we even consider the obvious moral issues/responsibilities, what are you going to say to the judge? We encourage our workers to tie into the same sections that their cutting off! [Judge] – is this necessary considering the potential fatal consequences? [Tree man] - Er-no but its comfortable. [Judge] – Your defense is based on an assumption that everyone has the same foresight and level of awareness, therefore you have been both negligent and to some extent reckless in the message that you are sending out, Go to jail Mr Treeman!

Some techniques require a higher level of skill, experience, and understanding/feel for mechanics to the point that they are almost impossible to teach or document. I’m sure many of you can relate to what I mean, but you can’t teach them, they just evolve! I keep them to myself and amongst others that I trust.

A lot of start-ups an novices out there who unfortunately don’t have a Riggs or Blaster on board watching there back’s. Also, if your encouraging this method, where do you draw the line i.e ‘when not to use it’?

Personally it falls into my ‘do as I say but not as I do’ category. Not an admission to be proud of, but it’s an honest one!
 
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