rope placement while blocking down a trunk

Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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Looking for another fight Grover?



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If it means making the industry safer then the answer is yes.

I will fight to make our job safer, and this technique does the exact opposite.

Do you Increase or Decrease the risk of death or serious injury by using this technique?

Remember you are cutting away wood that is supporting your life line.

Increase or Decrease?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

For the record I don't use this tech.

I can understand the reasoning however, as I understand it, the climbing line is used to merely hold your position and not support your whole body weight, your lanyard is supporting the majority.. It would be quite easy to stop the cut and switch the tie in position if an sign of decay was noticed when cutting. Under the right circumstances I see nothing wrong with this tech.

WP
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Think outside the box. Oh yeah, dont cut all the way through....................................................................
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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as I understand it, the climbing line is used to merely hold your position and not support your whole body weight, your lanyard is supporting the majority..


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Then why not just use the lanyard with your lifeline below?

Surely you guys can't have that much of a issue with your work positioning techniques that you need to incorporate the overhead tie in when cutting a notch?

I thought TreeBuzz was for intelligent/progressive climbing arborists who use the latest equipment and techniques to improve work positioning in the tree?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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Think outside the box. Oh yeah, dont cut all the way through....................................................................

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You'll be in a box if you use this technique, a wooden one.

'Think outside the box' who said that?

Hitler?

Thats what he did, right?

Didn't get him very far, did it?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Grove,

I am very surprised that this is the first time that you've heard of this technique. It's been around for years. This is certainly a technique that demands a high level of awarensss and understanding.

I've used this technique for years with confidence. This confidence comes after learning how much wood is needed in a stem to support X weight. In compression wood is incredibly strong.

How much of a safety factor do we need? Hard to quantify that when we don't really know how strong the wood in the stem actually is. But...let's say that we are comfortable using 5" diameter stem as a tie in point. This gives the climber about 18 sq. inches of wood. Further down the tree the climber decides to use this technigue when the tree is closer to 12" dia. The tree now has about 110 sq. inches of wood. Roughly five times the cross section. Take away about one third for the face cut and about 67 sq. inches is left, still leaves just shy of four times the cross section of the original tie in point.

OK..OK...What happens if the climber cuts the face and realizes that there is some defect? Stop and change the plan. Having a mallet or the back of a handsaw [kicking with spikes too] are all good sounding techniques to determine soundness. Sounding is pretty darn accurate too after a climber has learned.

When I have done this I enroll my groundies as my extra eyes. I'll tell them what I am going to do and have all of them watch to make sure that I don't leave my TIP on top of the chunk and cut myself out. With all of these backups in place I am very comfortable using this technique
 
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If the wood is sound, I will leave my overhead tie in. I feel a lot safer moving around with a chainsaw when I have an overhead tie in. Even if it's only a few feet over head, it still helps a lot.

I always look up a couple times before even STARTING my back cut, to make sure I did pull the climbing line down.

love
nick

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I agree.

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Perhaps I was too quick and too brief with my post.

When making the notch to remove the top of the tree we (I and everyone I work with) have the climbing line and the lanyard at our waist, not in the original tie-in-point. Once the top has been removed we often--but not always--use some type of choked false crotch to rapel down to the next cut, put the lanyard around the tree, make the notch, and, if lowering the piece, set the rigging. Once everything is ready the climbing line and false crotch are pulled down and reset. The operation is then repeated for the rest of the spar.

We always check the soundness of the wood before the notch is started. Everyone on the crew (all climbers and all ground workers) are familiar with the technique and watch, assist, and double-check to make sure the climber is not doing anything that would endanger himself or the ground crew.

Actually, that happens all the time.

It's great to work with a professional crew.....
cool.gif
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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I am very surprised that this is the first time that you've heard of this technique.

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I have heard of it, I approached it with the initial posts in a way newbies or apprentice arborists could understand.

I have seen guys use this technique many times and I watch in wonderment at the sheer stupidity of their actions.

I try to explain to them the obvious inherent flaws of cutting away wood that is supporting them and many of them have stopped doing it.

I have also seen a guy cut himself out of the tree, luckily his flipline lanyard caught him and he survived to tell the tale. I would not be relying on groundies, be they expert climbers or professional brush pilots to watch out for me so that I can stop cutting myself out of the tree.

I have seen it in action many times, as a safety concious climbing arborist I find this technique repellent.

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It's been around for years.

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So has Leprosi, doesn't really make it good though, does it?

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This is certainly a technique that demands a high level of awarensss and understanding.

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This is a technique that needs to be stopped due to it increasing the risk of serious injury or death.

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I've used this technique for years with confidence.

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I'm sorry Tom, but this does not make it safe.
Many climbers used to footlock unaided for years with confidence, would you support a move back in that direction?

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How much of a safety factor do we need? Hard to quantify that when we don't really know how strong the wood in the stem actually is.

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Exactly my point and you want to remove more of it that is supporting your weight.

Why can't you guys use your skills as climbing arborists to avoid using this technique?

I have never used it even on large diameter stems.

The thought of using it goes against my instinctive survival mechanisms. My brain tells me it is wrong to cut away something I am tied into regardless of subjective cubic inches and safety factors.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Sometimes I look up at where the tree or a limb USED to be, and say to myself- "If I just removed a 400 pound limb (or 3,000 pounds or more of an entire tree) then there's little my 165 pound self is going to do break this limb/trunk.

Give the tree some credit.

Chainsaws hurt more people than do broken TIPs. Maybe we should ban their use as well?

Just joking on that last one!

love
nick
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Grover,

Your conversational style is interesting.

"I have also seen a guy cut himself out of the tree, luckily his flipline lanyard caught him and he survived to tell the tale. I would not be relying on groundies..."

Why didn't you stop the guy before he cut himself out? Please expand the story...

I don't rely 100% on my groundies. But mine, like Mahk's are trained and teammates. We all work to cover each other and are backups to backups. Like Nick, when I use this technique I have a mental checklist that I go over several times before I make each step.

This all boils down to safety factors and backups. How much/many of each is a person comfortable with?

Do you wear chainsaw protective mitts, jacket and pants when you're using a saw off the ground? How cut resistant is your climbing rope? My point is that there are certainly LOTS of ways that a climber can be injured or killed. Lack of knowledge and skill are the biggest shortcomings.
 
Sorry to butt in, but The friction savor and prussik as my tie-in work really well to eliminate binding. I use that under the loop part of the sling and my lanyard above. I also puts distance between lines so all are kept separate.
Safe climbing!
 
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Once the top has been removed we often--but not always--use some type of choked false crotch to rapel down to the next cut, put the lanyard around the tree, make the notch

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I use this technique, I leave a long tail on the running bow to retrieve the rope from the top, setting the sling and block is fine, but cutting the notch, absolutely not, under no circumstances whatsoever.

It is a flawed technique passed down over the years without many people questioning it. I know many others who wont use it, and many of them had never used this technique before I met them.


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We always check the soundness of the wood before the notch is started. Everyone on the crew (all climbers and all ground workers) are familiar with the technique and watch, assist, and double-check to make sure the climber is not doing anything that would endanger himself or the ground crew.

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Surely the ground crew cannot see 80ft up the tree to where the climber is cutting the notch to double check it for decay?

If a climber is having to rely on the ground crew to warn them to take out their top tie in point, then should we really, as serious climbing arborists, be advocating this as a safe work positionong technique?

Promoting this as a safe technique is nonsense, just like unaided footlocking and climbing without helmets is nonsense, we all want people to take this industry seriously, so telling them,

"yeah, we cut the piece we're tied into, but it's ok, honestly we'll be fine"

- ain't really gonna work in pushing the industry away from all it's old bad habits.

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It's great to work with a professional crew.....
cool.gif


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How great would it be if everyone in a tree crew could say this?
smirk.gif
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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I have heard of it, I approached it with the initial posts in a way newbies or apprentice arborists could understand.

[/ QUOTE ] YOU WILL DIE INSTANTLY IF YOU DO THIS

Say, for instance, you are blocking down wood on a standard garden-variety tree. Each piece of wood you have cut has been clear and defect free. There won't be a magic ultra-sneaky cavity that the tree doesn't tell you about. If you incounter something fishy, alter your plan.

I'm sure you alter your techniques on a tree by tree basis like the rest of us. This is another tool in an ever expanding toolbox. Don't ever close your toolbox!

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This is a technique that needs to be stopped due to it increasing the risk of serious injury or death.

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By that logic, we should never climb a tree ever. Under any circumstance. Just being up there increases the risk of injury and death. For that matter, we should never go outside at all, you never know when lightning will strike....


Grover, you need to take off your blinders


If you don't feel comfortable leaving your TIP above you on a structuraly sound stem, don't do it!
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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Your conversational style is interesting.

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What prey tell, are you trying to imply with that statement Mr Dunlap?


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Why didn't you stop the guy before he cut himself out? Please expand the story...

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I tried to, me and another ground guy shouted at him as he was making his back cut, he saw the top go and he shouted, NO O OO OO NO OOOO, OOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOO....ooooooo....
He was fine, if a little bruised and dazed.

People have died using this technique.


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Lack of knowledge and skill are the biggest shortcomings.

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I thought you guys would have the necessary skills to be able to make a notch without the overhead tie in point?

I think you do have these skills, and deep down you know there is something very, very wrong about this technique.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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This is another tool in an ever expanding toolbox. Don't ever close your toolbox!


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This is not a tool! Its a throwback to dark days of arboriculture when we tried things and forget to stop using them when we realised they were stupid.

Zac,

I have to thank you for bringing this out in the open, great idea to spin off from the original thread.

My blinders are off, it is you you are blinded, blinded by conformity to the accepted ways of doing things.

Dont be an arborzombie Zac, be yourself and question everything.
smirk.gif
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I will stay tied in above on a spar while cutting a face notch depending upon the situation... If the spar was strong enough to handle the takedown and rigging above said tie in point, it can handle me being tied-in to said TIP. I see the concern of notching out the only available holding wood (my old partner once lost a tree backwards due to such a thing). However, with pre climb and "pre-cut" inspections one may avoid such mishaps.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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If the spar was strong enough to handle the takedown and rigging above said tie in point, it can handle me being tied-in to said TIP.

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Maybe you weakened it with the rigging, why take a completly unnessesary extra risk?

The other option is to just tie in at waist height.

What is so difficult about that?
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

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People have died using this technique.


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Put you money where your mouth is. Who, where, when? Who investigated? Are these errant accidents documented in Dr. John Ball's statistics as well? YOU make the claims.......substantiate them.

A mountain out of a molehill.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Grover,

I question lots of things...I also realize that there is latitude and there are few sure things in this world.

The way that you have told anyone who uses this technique that they're crazy and unsafe is a bit outlandish.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I know of one definate case in England a few years back early 2000s or late 90s, experienced guy was reducing the height of large overgrown leylandii conifers(hedge), cut himself out the tree using this technique, I will try to find the exact case.

I am sure there have been more.

'A Mountain out of a molehill'???

A molehill it may be, but it's an ugly molehill that needs flattened and obliterated.

If you think this technoque is safe, its because you have been programmed to believe it.
 
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