Rescue ?

Providence here I come!

  • I wouldn't miss ISA Providence

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Would like to, but on the fence

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Cannot make it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
I've answered yes.
Only a week ago I completed a rescue and a complex climbing qualification.
I wouldn't say I'm proficient but I consider myself competent.
As someone relatively new to climbing and doesn't climb every day a need exists for continual practice not only in rescue techniques but all climbing skills as a way of building confidence and proficiency.
I have dedicated a "rescue bag" consisting of a industrial access (rescue rope), a hauling kit, prusiks, biners etc etc if the need ever arises.
 
My intention with this poll is to get people thinking !

Climb safe is something I subscribe on allmost every post and article I have wrote te last years. But some people I work with I know for sure are not capable of doing a descent rescue from an access rope or on spurs. That kind of makes you think about this issue that is for as far I can tell bigger than it seems......
 
Rescuing a climber trapped under a wash fan palm bag would be extremely dicey without aerial equipment.

You'd need a ratchet strap to replace circle created by the trapped and his lanyard. Creating a second upper choke point with the strap prior to cutting the climber's lanyard.

Or you could pull a Danielism by felling the whole palm with the climber still in it! Fell it the right way and it might just work!

I'm fairly certain a few SoCal Fire Dept's have successfully saved trapped climbers beneath wash fan bags using ladders and lift trucks.

Doing it with no lift would be quite an accomplishment considering the danger involved combined the short time it takes a climber to asphyxiate.

jomoco
 
I'm going to say no just because knowing how to treat every situation would be insanely tough to be prepared for.

I know how to get someone to the ground one way or the other. It might not look pretty but if you need to come down I'll make it happen.

I've had to rescue someone on spikes before and that was tricky. Every situation is going to be different with different gear set ups. Get to know your crew and what systems they work with then there is a fighting chance.
 
I say no, There are many situations that I have not practiced. And though I climb all the time, and would have some idea how to get someone down i would not feel confident in my ability to do so in a timely manner. This is something that bothers me greatly. And something I am trying to remedy for myself and everyone on my crew.
 
It is impossible to practice for any situation that can occur up in a tree.
And some scenario's can be really tough to pull of a descent and safe rescue. But do you practice aerial rescues at all in the States, is there some course you can follow or is it just like here only TCC related ?

There is a small change we ever have to perform a rescue, but it seems like a major issue when working in a team of arborist and where you kind of depend on your colleague arborist when ever it should be nescessary.

Climb safe
 
I answered yes. Being a firefigheter, you find there there is absolutly no way to practice every possible scenario people find a way to make things worse then you have ever seen before. Arborists are the same way. Everyone has their own system with its own set of issues.
We practice AR quarterly, and each session has a different toppic. Topics covered include static (single and double lines), work climb, spike, and we have even recently done a pin.
I think most people can and dont have any problem completing a safe rescue in practice, even the most difficult of situations, it really all climbing/rigging (just with a person) stuff you should already know if you are in a tree. You have time to think, plan, and do. Theres really not a lot of stress on the rescuer because there isnt really a life a stake. At best your climbing partner (laughing and giggling) "dont touch me there".
Here is an article of a AR drill we conducted with contractor that we work with. http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/7a4c92e9#/7a4c92e9/54
(I dont know if it will work for non CA/ISA memebers, but I dont know the laws or even how to copy it into he forum)
Tony did a great job setting up the drill and pushing our crew to places we had never been before, making us think on our feet and testing our AR SOP and skills. The AR went well but even with that we all learned the importance of communication, team work, and having one direction. We even learned about some deficincies in our equipment.

NATS has an AR course, that covers all the major "STATES" and can be taylored to what you want to work on.

I think as arborists we have the skills to complete the rescues, the problem will be can we operate under stressful situations.
 
I've seen several rescues at a comp I went to. Basicly call 911. Get up to the climber with another climbing system and a way to hoist him off whatever he is resting on while consistently reasuring him in a confident voice that you will get him down and have called for help. Now, add some blood or a broken bone a little fear and lack of experience and I answered no. Although I have been in a few panic situations in my life and am not one to get excited when others can seem to fall completely apart. A rescue from me would be better than nothing.
 
I answered no since the options were all or nearly nothing. I've taken AR a couple of times but, haven't practiced. I have done one rescue in a ridiculously small tree. That created a situation that wasn't dealt with in any course, a victim with no harness or other means of securing himself. He was high enough off the ground and incurred a leg injury such that he couldn't confidently descend.

One of the advantages I think we bring to AR is the ability to improvise. The very nature of the work we do means we have to assess each situation and bring to bear the available tools to get the job done safely and successfully. That type of ability gives us the right mindset to adapt to whatever AR scenario arises. The training we need has more to do with first aid in order to evaluate and deal with the injuries properly.
 
Hey flyingsquirrel,

I have a similar view, I too are qualified and practiced as well as train in a number of other emergency disciplines and acknowledge the diverse dynamics and individuality of any given situation. As others have commented no situation is the same yet in my opinion the theory and practice of sizing up of any situation is.
My opinion is that confidence, functionality and capability under pressure, speed and or proficiency is what most will find challenging. Some people have a natural ability to meet the challenges, some need to work on it, for others its not in their make up. The key is knowing your own, your pard's or your teams/crews strengths, weakness's and abilities.
 
Some real honoust answers.
The results are kind of the same here compared to the same poll I set up in the netherlands.

We are preparing a scenario's day for arborist over here in the netherlands toget more AR action and practice.
Hope someone in the states can do the same and get things going over there :-)
 
I too am with FlyingSquirrel.

I also agree that it is impossible to train for "every" scenario.

But here is the catch, while we cannot train for every situation, every situation we train for gives us more tools in our tool box that we can then pull out and use should we need them.

Training is not about rote procedure to cover every contingency. Rather, it is more about learning how to work a solution which in turn allows you to work any solution.

Training is also about learning and understanding the fundamentals so that those become ingrained in our minds.

Even in non emergency situations I am often telling my people, "Gentlemen, we have seen this before! Work the Solution!"

While we may not have seen this exact situation before, there are only so many permutations of what we HAVE seen so it should be somewhat familiar.

Afterall, we can probably break down our rescue scenarios into a handful of examples such as heat stroke, struck-by, pinned, animal/insect attack, cardiac event, bleeding event, fall, strangulation.

Of course there are more but you get the idea.

So the argument that one "...cannot train for them all so we won't train at all", while sounding reasonable, is actually a pretty empty argument, especially when one considers that the same person using that argument would virtually never say the same thing about training in other areas of tree work such as climbing, chipper use, felling, pruning, cutting ets.


That logic requires some serious rethinking, IMHO.

Now, training to beat a clock or making it a race, that is a horse of a different color and I am against it whole heartedly. When I was a Fire Engineer a captain I had would tell me to wait 30 seconds before rolling out the door to clear my head.

I argued 30 seconds was a waste of time. He argued, first that if it is on fire, it will still be on fire in 30 seconds, but more importantly, by clearing my head our chances of actually getting there and being able to help were virtually guaranteed.

Not an emprical argument by any case, but on thought a fairly reasonable on.

After having several heart attacks, where every second counts, I have seen and learned the importance of taking the adequate time to take care of the patient right, because seconds saved at the cost of doing something right usually ends up wasting more time than it saves.

So, I submit my Captain was correct!

So, for me, training with deliberat purpose, YES! Training with a timer as the judge, NFW!

JMHO
 
rf, you bring up another great point. The timer... I think in general arborists are lacking the patient assessment and care side of the rescue. This is why fire departments take over so often in rescue situations. Too often we skip over taking care of the patient in an attempt to beat that 5 min mark. But in reality there are only a handful of situations that require that rapid extrication from the tree (cardiac, respitory and sever bleeding that cannot be effectively stopped in the tree). If their heart is beating and they are breathing they have time, and much more care needs to be taken to prevent agrivation of their injuries. I can think of a lot of situations where I would get there, assess and just keep them calm until the amb arrived for more equipment to remove them from the tree. Who carries spine immobilization equipment on their truck? LSP half back or even a cervical collar? If someone has a broken arm or leg, do you have something to splint it before moving them? Sam splint, ace bandage? Can you improvise something? If someone is pinned under a limb are how are you going to get them out? To prevent further injury its much more than picking the limb up and pulling them out. In a bad car wreck the patient is not moved until they can be completely taken from the car to the amb, care is taken to remove every part of the car that is obstructing this task. Same applies in a tree.

I also had a fire captain with a great saying "slower is faster". And it works, slow down make sure you cover everything the first time through and as time goes on you will engrain you movements and system in your brain and you will be able to go quicker. In the fire service we call this Muscle Memory, repeating the same task so many times in practice it is almost automatic. And remember there is no time limit on a rescue, because you rush and miss something you are not only putting yourself at risk to be a second victom, but you are risking your patients future as well.
This is what happens when you let someone rush you from the ground and you over look something simple that may be normally second nature to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-0V_mumflM
 
They played that video of "Gubber" (amongst others)(made me wince) at my AR theory emphasizing the point of what I call conscious and purposeful actions. This is whats required during stressful occasions so as to get it right in the correct sequence. Due to my lack of experience in climbing its something I use consistently yet I find my daily work I have a systematized approach which potentially offers up a high risk (complacency).
I agree totally, the only thing that will increase speed safely is proficiency and that comes with training experience and exposure.
 
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