Just curious as to what kind of success you've had with the milwaukee drills for your rollgliss?
Reliable DIY power ascender
- Thread starter Burrapeg
- Start date
- Location
- East of DC
Hi Folks! I have a question only you guys can answer: is there a market for a rope ascender specifically designed to be powered by a drill? The reason I ask is because a couple months ago I built one and I'm not sure what to do with it. Unlike a lot of my tinkering, it came out better than expected. Here are the specs:
1) Ascends about 50' per minute
2) Quickly midline attachable
3) Uses any rope between 11mm and 13mm
4) Weighs less than 13 lbs including cordless drill
5) Can be used as a hoist or with a haul system
6) Self-locking, descends using the drill in reverse
I'm 64, retiring as a cabinetmaker, occasionally rec climb, and not really interested in starting a new business, but if people would use it... The ascender as it is would need a significant redesign to improve longevity and get to the smallest size. Otherwise I suspect it could be built and sold for around $500 not counting the drill (and liability insurance). So... what do you think?
TIA, Jim
1) Ascends about 50' per minute
2) Quickly midline attachable
3) Uses any rope between 11mm and 13mm
4) Weighs less than 13 lbs including cordless drill
5) Can be used as a hoist or with a haul system
6) Self-locking, descends using the drill in reverse
I'm 64, retiring as a cabinetmaker, occasionally rec climb, and not really interested in starting a new business, but if people would use it... The ascender as it is would need a significant redesign to improve longevity and get to the smallest size. Otherwise I suspect it could be built and sold for around $500 not counting the drill (and liability insurance). So... what do you think?
TIA, Jim
John@TreeXP
Branched out member
- Location
- Bainbridge Island
Please provide photos or a video demo. I'm curious about how it'll compare to what's been showcased on here. Is it something anyone can DIY? How does it compare to the Ronin @26lbs, or what Burrapeg came up with? Does it use any toothed ascenders? I like the price $500 price point.
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- Location
- East of DC
Thanks for the reply. Originally I was going to release it as a DIY project for anyone who had a table saw, drill press, wood lathe, etc. Basically it's made from a cannibalized hand winch and Maasdam rope puller, 9 pcs of aluminum and a few parts bought from Amazon, Lowes and McMaster. All told it was about $250.
The problem I'm having is heat. After about 50' the grease starts to break down, friction goes up, and the crappy gearing I used starts to wear too fast. I'm thinking an oil bath and better gearing would fix all that, but the aluminum gearbox of the prototype isn't sealable so the only positive solution is a cast aluminum housing and some oil seals/gaskets. That puts it out of reach for anyone who doesn't have their own foundry and machinist equipment. I don't have those things either.
So... about the only thing that would stay the same is the layout of the rope handling assembly which I believe is unique. Only a patent search would say yay or nay on that, meaning none of the final development is going to be cheap, which is why I'm here gauging any interest first. When I told my wife about what I was doing, she said, "Don't show it to anyone!" Sorry.
That said, I think the Ronin is ridiculous in how the rope is loaded, and after I saw that YouTube video of how it nearly severed a rope - no thank you. After about 1500' of testing, the Maasdam pulley hasn't plucked one strand. No toothed ascenders either. I've been using a Petzl Rescusender for life support backup while testing, and it works great without teeth.
My ascender most closely resembles the Rollgliss and Burrapeg's adaptation except the position of the drill is more ergonomically friendly and doesn't need bracing to prevent torquing your wrist. In fact you can separate the ascender from the drill in about 3 seconds at the chuck, and hang the two components on either side of your saddle. It's not how I use it but you have the option. Loading the rope literally takes 11 seconds, and even less to unload.
I realize no pictures is a show stopper for some. If it's any consolation, and to show I'm not just blowing smoke, I do have a DIY project I can share. It's a throw line launcher that's more accurate and forgiving than the APTA, and can be assembled in an afternoon from parts bought at Lowes and Amazon for about $175. But first things first. Is there a market for my ascender or am I barking up the wrong tree.
TIA, Jim
The problem I'm having is heat. After about 50' the grease starts to break down, friction goes up, and the crappy gearing I used starts to wear too fast. I'm thinking an oil bath and better gearing would fix all that, but the aluminum gearbox of the prototype isn't sealable so the only positive solution is a cast aluminum housing and some oil seals/gaskets. That puts it out of reach for anyone who doesn't have their own foundry and machinist equipment. I don't have those things either.
So... about the only thing that would stay the same is the layout of the rope handling assembly which I believe is unique. Only a patent search would say yay or nay on that, meaning none of the final development is going to be cheap, which is why I'm here gauging any interest first. When I told my wife about what I was doing, she said, "Don't show it to anyone!" Sorry.
That said, I think the Ronin is ridiculous in how the rope is loaded, and after I saw that YouTube video of how it nearly severed a rope - no thank you. After about 1500' of testing, the Maasdam pulley hasn't plucked one strand. No toothed ascenders either. I've been using a Petzl Rescusender for life support backup while testing, and it works great without teeth.
My ascender most closely resembles the Rollgliss and Burrapeg's adaptation except the position of the drill is more ergonomically friendly and doesn't need bracing to prevent torquing your wrist. In fact you can separate the ascender from the drill in about 3 seconds at the chuck, and hang the two components on either side of your saddle. It's not how I use it but you have the option. Loading the rope literally takes 11 seconds, and even less to unload.
I realize no pictures is a show stopper for some. If it's any consolation, and to show I'm not just blowing smoke, I do have a DIY project I can share. It's a throw line launcher that's more accurate and forgiving than the APTA, and can be assembled in an afternoon from parts bought at Lowes and Amazon for about $175. But first things first. Is there a market for my ascender or am I barking up the wrong tree.
TIA, Jim
John@TreeXP
Branched out member
- Location
- Bainbridge Island
If you review this and/or similar threads, you should come across the one from the guy who produced the Ropetek Wraptor. He was asking what we'd like to see in the way of an upgraded automated ascending device. The responses are very much inline with the description of your device's features. I would imagine that ironing out the details and bringing something of this magnitude from a working prototype to ready-for-prime-time mass marketed automated ascending device, with a price point between $500-$1000 would be extremely well received in the tree climbing community and the entire spectrum of at-height occupations, including emergency responders. Whether this would be broadly accepted by this broad of a target audience is uncertain, but it may be well worth the effort. You may even want to consider doing this through Go Fund Me, as to help mitigate the start-up costs.
Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
Welcome aboard, Jim. Sounds like a worthwhile project, if you are willing to risk the liability issue. My Rollgliss adaptation has a built-in problem in that one has to find a Rollgliss r500 first and they are not always easy or cheap to find. A ready made power ascender that uses a heavy cordless drill would be great. The Wraptor is a problem for rec climbing in that it is noisy, which is a serious problem in a park or if you are poaching a climb somewhere without exactly getting permission. Also, the things cost a mint and there is a waiting list of pros who want one, when they turn up new or used on the market. And the Ronin has a long way to go before it is an ideal device, due to expensive replacement batteries, not mid-line attachable, and finicky about the size and type of rope. That is one thing I love about the modded Rollgliss; it will climb without slipping on anything I shove into it! So, good luck with this if you go ahead. But do think about the liability. It is not a trivial consideration. Even if a purchaser is a good friend, how well will you be received by his widow? And a signed release is no help if the purchaser has minor children. Their rights cannot be signed away and their parents can sue on their behalf from the issue of lost wages and emotional impact. I don't mean to rain on the parade, but I learned all this the hard way!
I looked back through the threads related to the rollgliss and diy ascenders and found one reference to lubrication. @Burrapeg mentioned a grease with moly D i believe.
My question is this, What type of grease would be best to use on these devices? I need a grease that will stay on the gears and shafts but not run off. Anyone have any recommendations?
- Location
- East of DC
Thanks John. Fortunately after decades of work I've put aside a small nest egg that should cover the rest of the development process. Unfortunately us woodworkers accumulate wealth no faster than most woods workers, and even if this effort fails miserably it just means a few less cruises to the Bahamas (isn't that what old farts do in retirement?) But it would be very helpful to hear from people why they'd never use such a device, too. Anyone?
- Location
- East of DC
Thanks Burrapeg. I worry about these things, too. Maybe too much some times. I can't imagine the courage it takes to bring something like the Akimbo or RopeRunner to market. I don't have it, and even after weeks of trying to destroy my ascender and failing, well... I might not have the courage for releasing it either. We'll have to see.
I don't know tree climbing very well, but making things that are inherently solid and durable has been my profession and I'm hoping that will carry over to this effort as well. Another thing you guys can help me with are safety protocols when informing potential users. Obviously some applications will be more dangerous than others and that's where my experience is lacking.
Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
I feel bad about being somewhat discouraging, but the sodding lawyers have stifled so much innovation. They collect their fees regardless who wins or loses. So, ironically, many products that would have made a given trade much safer have never been developed because it was not worth the risk of financial ruination to a small inventor.
Hi Jim,
I mimicked the wraptor sheaves and did a rollgliss plus drill like unit in 2014 which was light but gangly and awkward. You split clamp the casting of the drill to take the torque and align it. I then spent winter hours at the mill and made a small light midline etc version so it tucks under the bridge of my Sequoia saddle in 2016. Part of my size reduction was chopping up a drill. I had concerns about engineering the gears as its a wear vs size trade off. My unit is 7 lbs. Putting it out in public is a definite issue. Also, manufacturing cost vs smallness and coolness is a direct tradeoff. The effort to mass produce without a dollop of prefab componentry is a tradeoff. For example, wraptor has pre-made motor and drivetrain excepting the final gears and sheaves plus load structure. Rollgliss and drill has huge portion of drivetrain final gears load structure sheaves ready to adapt and use saving detail work and time. The other unit some guy is selling looks like a rollgliss but isn't (?) and he promotes it as use it with a drill. When you make the push for all good and optimized the time effort cost go way up taking away the commercial incentive to want and be able to make money off it. The cheaper units or profitable units with liability overbuild are up in 15 to 20 lbs which is a definite negative kick in the coolness department. So, I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you, but if you can clever out a solution that beats all these tradeoffs my hat will definitely be off to you. By the way, welcome to the crowd of somewhat mech nerd oriented folks.
I mimicked the wraptor sheaves and did a rollgliss plus drill like unit in 2014 which was light but gangly and awkward. You split clamp the casting of the drill to take the torque and align it. I then spent winter hours at the mill and made a small light midline etc version so it tucks under the bridge of my Sequoia saddle in 2016. Part of my size reduction was chopping up a drill. I had concerns about engineering the gears as its a wear vs size trade off. My unit is 7 lbs. Putting it out in public is a definite issue. Also, manufacturing cost vs smallness and coolness is a direct tradeoff. The effort to mass produce without a dollop of prefab componentry is a tradeoff. For example, wraptor has pre-made motor and drivetrain excepting the final gears and sheaves plus load structure. Rollgliss and drill has huge portion of drivetrain final gears load structure sheaves ready to adapt and use saving detail work and time. The other unit some guy is selling looks like a rollgliss but isn't (?) and he promotes it as use it with a drill. When you make the push for all good and optimized the time effort cost go way up taking away the commercial incentive to want and be able to make money off it. The cheaper units or profitable units with liability overbuild are up in 15 to 20 lbs which is a definite negative kick in the coolness department. So, I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you, but if you can clever out a solution that beats all these tradeoffs my hat will definitely be off to you. By the way, welcome to the crowd of somewhat mech nerd oriented folks.
Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
What I did with the Moly-D tapping oil was to mix it roughly half and half with a very heavy chassis grease, which thins the chassis grease so it will smear around the gear teeth in use, and the Moly adds film strength. Molydenum DiSulphide molecules are like tiny rock-hard spherical ball bearings. I use it on the ways of my engine lathes and milling machines. Moly-D is great stuff, right up there with Duct Tape, Cosmolene, and WD-40.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Replace WD 40 with PB Blaster lol
- Location
- East of DC
Hi Bart,
I hear that! Do you make it indestructible or make it light and easy to use, and needing a rebuild every year? My unit is about 7 lbs but I see it gaining another pound with new gearing. After looking at gear prices I've been tempted to try a Chinese speed reducer already made and for a fraction of the cost. I suspect there's a 1 in 10 chance it will be durable. Should I buy one just for grins? Who knows.
It sounds like you already have all this figured out, and yet you only made one for yourself?
Thanks!
Jim
- Location
- East of DC
Hmmmm. You want to turn a couple shafts for me? I have money, at least for a little while longer.
John@TreeXP
Branched out member
- Location
- Bainbridge Island
I plan to be rec climbing Coastal Redwoods this October in No Cal. with the Tree Climbing Rendezvous group. By all means, please come climb with us and showcase your wares, maybe set up an elevator for those who need a little extra lift. I think Gene is still taking sign-ups.
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- Location
- East of DC
Thanks for the invite; it sounds like fun. Forty years ago, back before they invented rope, I lived in Oregon and climbed a couple big firs, but never a redwood. Unfortunately I have several pieces to make before Christmas and, thanks to my new hobby, have been procrastinating badly.
Since the redwoods are so tall, maybe you guys could use a good launcher? But they might not let you take it on the plane.
It pushes a Notch 12oz throw bag about 20' higher than whatever psi you load into the middle section. The blowgun is hair trigger and won't throw off your aim. The back section (behind the blue valve) is rated to 200 psi (1000 psi with mods) allowing multiple shots from one charge. Finally the dogleg (elbow) lets you sight down the barrel like a rifle.
Thanks again!
Jim
Since the redwoods are so tall, maybe you guys could use a good launcher? But they might not let you take it on the plane.
It pushes a Notch 12oz throw bag about 20' higher than whatever psi you load into the middle section. The blowgun is hair trigger and won't throw off your aim. The back section (behind the blue valve) is rated to 200 psi (1000 psi with mods) allowing multiple shots from one charge. Finally the dogleg (elbow) lets you sight down the barrel like a rifle.
Thanks again!
Jim
Burrapeg
Been here a while
- Location
- Puget Sound
Impressive! Looks like a very professional job. I tried to make an all metal propane fired launcher last year. Big fail! The bag broke the throw line and vanished into the sky, and I never found it. Also the recoil knocked me on my arse and the noise had several of the neighbors coming out to see what happened. Might have misjudged the amount of propane charge!
climbstihl
Branched out member
- Location
- Germany
What throwline were you using?
