Questions about survival of White Oak with hypoxylon

Zacchaeus

Zacchaeus

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Jasper
Ok, so, there is this HUGE white oak, probably at least 200 years old, with some dieback in the crown 4'-8' in from all the tips, fairly uniform, but worse on a few branches on one side (which makes up about 10-20% of crown). The one side that's bad has hypoxylon spore pads, in brown, gray, and black stages and no live sprouts... The massive trunk has a 2' x 4' wound on one side, probably old construction damage, with decent woundwood development. There is a concrete drive close to trunk (~ 15' from base) and all nice lawn in/around root zone that is compacted (hard as concrete). There are lots of green sprouts on all limbs just in from the dead tips.
Questions:
Is this tree doomed?
Will the hypoxylon attack this large white oak quickly, if left unchecked?
Will air-tilling and mulching the root zone (and removing grass, obviously) help the tree last many more years?
Is any mitigation, other than crown cleaning the dangerous deadwood until sure death occurs and removal is necessary, worth the time and money?
If mitigated with air-till and mulching, will this white oak possibly 'survive' for a while, despite hypoxylon present?
Sorry no pics to help. I know it's vague. Thanks fellas!
 
Are you sure you have hypoxolon and not Kretzschmaria?

The first think you need to do is ID the fungus to genus or even species. Then start mapping the location. You need to know if the entire cross section is affected or only a small portion. Next you need to consider the buttress roots, are they solid?

Start thinking about tomography and resistograph.

If the tree is not structurally sound then it is not worth worrying about the soil. If the structure is good getting air into the soil and reducing compaction is highly beneficial.
 
On the topic of hypoxylon vs. Kretzschmaria: what are the differences? Any good resources you can guide me to? When the boss sees the brown/gray/black spore pads, it's immediately Hypoxylon and the tree is doomed... I try to be a little more optimistic (given the appropriate mitigation, of course). Any differences in the mitigation approaches between the two??
On the topic of testing: I'm Positive the homeowner will not pay for all of that... Any thoughts or advice?
 
I suppose that I was thinking that you have a black crust, thus hypoxolon or kretzschmaria. You may actually have something like a Xylaria so it is important to ID first as Kretz is bad and unpredictable while X. polymorpha is much less an issue.
 
ok, sounds like i'll be doing some internet searches for info...
You are correct, the black and gray patches are like a 'crust'. the brownish-tan patches will rub on your fingers...
Thanks mrtree!
 
Remember that Kretz causes a 10% loss of density but a 90% loss of strength, is hard to measure with a tomograph or traditional resistograph and will spread throughout the cross section of the trunk quickly (i.e. in months not years).
 
Black stroma(stromata) are sexually perfect stage while the grey with white halo is the imperfect or asexual stage.
 
from just googling the images of 'hypoxylon' vs the images of 'kretzschmaria', it definitely matches the hypoxylon more so... none of the kretzschmaria fruiting bodies found anywhere...
so, back to my question, can the tree be treated with air-tilling & mulching and survive for "Lord knows how many years", or should we suggest (although I dislike) "letting it die and removing" because "it's inevitable"???
what would you do? note: I don't have the 'estimator/sellers' contact with homeowner, but can still inform the boss as to options...
 
If it is Hypoxolon then you stand a much better chance of retaining the tree. Unfortunately without seeing the tree I cannot tell much more.

Aeration and mulching will certainly have a positive effect on the tree (but we still have not determined the structural stability). I bet that work done now will show as a marked improvement in growth next year.
 
Oh and matching photos from the internet is not a good way to ID. Many hypoxolons and kretz have a black bubbly stage, as does lots of other Xylareaceae. Get a few books, a microscope and a course. Mycology/fungal ID is a massive gap in most people knowledge.
 
Zacchaeus said:
I'm Positive the homeowner will not pay for all of that...
Click to expand...
Why? What's the going rate for plant diagnostics near you? Have you explained the benefit of having it tested to confirm your suspicions? This would allow them to know what they're dealing with and choose the best course of action. Sell the service and be sure to add for your efforts in obtaining the sample and admin.
 
treehumper said:
Why? What's the going rate for plant diagnostics near you? Have you explained the benefit of having it tested to confirm your suspicions? This would allow them to know what they're dealing with and choose the best course of action. Sell the service and be sure to add for your efforts in obtaining the sample and admin.
Click to expand...
Well, we crown cleaned the deadwood from the tree, and I asked the boss if the homeowners were going to have us aerate and mulch, and he said yes, but they barely wanted to pay for that. Again, I don't have much sway in the process of selling the services...
The testing that I'm sure they wouldn't pay for is the tomography and/or resistograph. I hear those are pricey, and we can't do it in-house.
I agree it would be best to know for sure, and if it was my company i'd sell the testing for positive id and proper management, but since we are booked up on work for months, he's not big on getting to the nitty gritty with stuff like that when he "knows" its hypoxylon...
My hands are slightly tied. I'm asking mostly for educating myself.
 
Zacchaeus, with regards to self-education on this topic, I have 2-cents to toss in. First, Mrtree gave a more useful treatment on the above than I would have. The cautionary note I want to introduce is that here, I think we are really speaking of one species of particular interest, the "brittle cinder" fungus, Kretzschmaria deusta. Although that genus has been around a long time, that full name or combination has only been around since 1970. At various times in my schooling, greybeard authorities would refer to that fungus as Hypoxylon deustum or Ustulina vulagaris. Arguably, in the first of the Julian Miller references Mrtree attached, the brittle cinder could even be Hypoxylon ustulatum. Those articles by Miller are great....the big plant science building that contains the Plant Pathology Department at UGA is named after Miller. Not often is a specialist in perithecial ascomycetes honored by a major building, but he had that clout.
Honestly, I never heard of Kretzschmaria as a genus until some of A.D.M Rayner's stuff in the 1980s. In my little part of the asco/decay world, we refer to the brittle cinder as "deustum", as that seems to be more clear. I don't readily understand what is being argued when saying something is "Kretszch" or "Hypoxylon". Depends on the authorities you follow and how up-to-date you are.
For a somewhat more recent and perhaps more user-friendly source of taxonomic information on this group, the website that Jack Rogers and his Chinese students set up is quite useful: http://mycology.sinica.edu.tw/xylariaceae/default.asp
 
KTSmith said:
Zacchaeus, The cautionary note I want to introduce is that here, I think we are really speaking of one species of particular interest, the "brittle cinder" fungus, Kretzschmaria deusta. Although that genus has been around a long time, that full name or combination has only been around since 1970.
Honestly, I never heard of Kretzschmaria as a genus until some of A.D.M Rayner's stuff in the 1980s. In my little part of the asco/decay world, we refer to the brittle cinder as "deustum", as that seems to be more clear. I don't readily understand what is being argued when saying something is "Kretszch" or "Hypoxylon". Depends on the authorities you follow and how up-to-date you are.
Click to expand...

The issue of kretz vs. hypoxolon is that K. deusta is found at the base of trees and is associated with catastrophic failures of whole trees. Hypoxolon (its many species) do not seem to be responsible for the full tree failures and they are noticed much earlier than brittle cinder fungus.

Brittle Cinder seems to be an easily overlooked species, I cannot find too many tree workers that know it, it looks like not much more than raccoon crap hidden away between buttress roots, but it seems particularly aggressive, causing extensive strength loss, yet has little visible symptoms in the tree.

As Kevin has alluded to, taxonomy is constantly changing and its tough to keep up. Even deusta vs. deustum is lost somewhere in time and papers; I think a is indicative of female singular and um is plural (but my latin sucks)
 
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Zacchaeus said:
Well, we crown cleaned the deadwood from the tree, and I asked the boss if the homeowners were going to have us aerate and mulch, and he said yes, but they barely wanted to pay for that. Again, I don't have much sway in the process of selling the services...
The testing that I'm sure they wouldn't pay for is the tomography and/or resistograph. I hear those are pricey, and we can't do it in-house.
I agree it would be best to know for sure, and if it was my company i'd sell the testing for positive id and proper management, but since we are booked up on work for months, he's not big on getting to the nitty gritty with stuff like that when he "knows" its hypoxylon...
My hands are slightly tied. I'm asking mostly for educating myself.
Click to expand...

I would say you should not be working in trees with extensive Kretz (brittle cinder fungus) and the nitty gritty in this case may kill you.
 
mrtree said:
I would say you should not be working in trees with extensive Kretz (brittle cinder fungus) and the nitty gritty in this case may kill you.
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Fortunately I was not climbing (using the aerial-lift) and no rigging was done, all free-fall.
All the spore pads were found out on the limbs, and could not find any kind of those fruiting bodies at the base, for what it's worth.
Thank you all for your help! I learn so much on here, I'm very happy and proud to be a member of such a great community here, jokes AND wisdom together!!
 
We need a mycologist at the expo. If only to pique interest in really learning this vital topic.

Zacchaeus said:
The testing that I'm sure they wouldn't pay for is the tomography and/or resistograph. I hear those are pricey, and we can't do it in-house.
I agree it would be best to know for sure, and if it was my company i'd sell the testing for positive id and proper management, but since we are booked up on work for months, he's not big on getting to the nitty gritty
Click to expand...
Tree work is expensive. Was it proposed and explained as to the benefit of doing the testing? Given the rest of your post, I doubt it. Selling begins with understanding the value proposition for the specific client. In this case, what is it about this tree that creates a willingness to spend any amount of money on doing something other than removing it? When you have that then you can start to discuss services in context of how they'll serve that desire. Testing, whether it be tomography, resistograph, plant tissue analysis, etc…, can then be presented in terms that will make sense to the client. But if it's just thrown at them with a price they're not likely to spend the money. That's relying on them to already understand the value of it.

Unfortunately when the company is booked up like yours then it tends to cause true selling to go out the window. Bad move. I feel your pain…
 
TH, maybe you have done so, but let organizers at TCI or ISA Chapters know about what you want to see at the conferences/tradeshows. I've done several mycological talks for practitioners for ISA chapters (Western, New England, Prairie, Pacific Northwest, etc.) and state organizations (NH, MA, ME). I'm at Expo this year (and the last several), but I don't think they've asked for that specifically. And its not just me, my colleague Jessie Glaeser (supervisor of the Center for Forest Mycology in Madison, WI) has been out there on the stump for wood decay quite a bit too. Sounds like MrTree could handle the assignment as well. George Hudler (Cornell Univ, perhaps recently retired) gives intro myco talks and I think he spoke right before me at Expo last year. I tend to lose track. Still, let folks know what you want to see! There is expertise out there.
 
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