Pulling with vehicle, etc.

Tom Dunlap said:
This poll started after a rope broke pulling a tree over. the details aren't complete but this is what I've gleaned.

The crew cut off just enough of the tree to make it fit the space.
A large tree
3/4" double braid used for the pullover... the rope was pretty new and not beat-up
Tied off in the canopy of the tree
Redirected off the base of another tree to a bollard on a bucket truck
Fast forward...miscommunication...blah blah blah

Rope breaks...no one hurt...the tree goes whanging back to vertical but fortunately doesn't back-break the hinge!

Another accident...possibly death or injury...dodged.
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Glad to hear no one was hurt. The driver or crew must have decided to pull the tree over with way too much holding wood in the hinge. 3/4 bull rope should have 20k+ break strength, as most of us know. To pull a tree to the point of 3/4 bull rope breaking is crazy. They should have stopped to add wedges and/or cut more when the tree did not start tipping with significant pulling force.. Just another point on how strong trees can be, and clear communication is invaluable.

I think pulling with vehicles can be safer and more controlled than using a winch in some cases. Winches can be slow, and even the faster chipper winches only have one speed. Both have their place.
 
I agree with what others have said but forgot to mention it earlier. Tension the line enough to get a minor movement in the crown and hold that position. Face cut, back cut to desired hinge width and usually that'll do it. If more is needed get some wedges in first, then verify hinge thickness and correct if necessary.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
How often do you pull a trunk/tree over with a vehicle?

What safeguards do you have in place if you do?

Have you ever broken a rope when pulling with a vehicle? If so, what was the rope diameter?

I'm fishing here in the pool of tribal knowledge. Of course I have my answers and they'll come out after some discussion.
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Once or twice a month, I always take every precaution during setup, communication to driver, what to expect, what can go wrong, even spike it to tie wrope in optimal place almost never use less than 9/16 rope mostly 5/8 .
The most important always is don't do this cut if the base is questionable, there is enuff stress involved. I have seen rotten v twist and fall sideways. I will climb Harry shit and cut small if need be .....but if it solid and you have space (no targets) why not.
 
Every Tree! or mighty close to it.. had my share of mishaps, but never any property damage... one of the greatest dangers of pulling with a machine is breaking out the top of the tree while the faller is under it.. Happened to a local contract climber working for another local company... he told me the story.. skid operator pulled early... broke a mulberry top out... landed all around him.. he said you would have never believed a person could have come out of that mess without getting hurt.. they actually had to cut their way into him... on the other hand pulling with ropes and trucks etc can make a dangerous job much safer if you know what you;re doing.. I just edited a video of a contract job I did for another arb.. heavy backleaning sugar maple.. limb on the back was within 3" of the primaries.. had two ropes in it.. bull line on the bucket truck was pre-tensioned and truck parked (a truly static line) ... then we used maybe 9/16 on a 4wd p/u... when the back cut popped, you could see the whole tree jump forward (away from the power lines due to the pre-tensioned bull line), then stalled until the inexperienced driver realized it was time to hit the gas... that was a big tree.. the front co-dom had split out so it had all back lean.... there is no one in the world that would have tried to pull that tree over by hand...
 
I used the log weight converter. Jar to find out what 20k# is

White oak
48" diameter and no taper
24.5 FEET long!!!!

And...like I said...the rope broke!

The crew was very nonchalant about the whole affair which makes me wonder?!
 
Daniel said:
good timing on this thread Tom.
I just bought a couple of 20,000 lb dynamometers today... one of the first things I AM going to do is see how much pull comes from different vehicles..
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If you have a 5:1 b/t with 1 guy pulling that true # would be interesting to.

Or a small cable come along they pull lots but slow I always wondered which has stronger pull
 
By hand,b/t, truck etc each of these things is a tool and the right tool on the right tree makes the job go great.
So you(I) can't say one is good or bad I use them all just depends on the job.
 
Working alone, I will often employ what Gerry B. described as "Tight Lining". Set line, tension, face cut, back cut, pull with my pickup. I will often tie in to both recovery hooks, in case one fails. Never broke a rope, or really even set a knot. Works like a charm.
 
Good topic. Nice to read the many opinions that I agree with. Wow. Very different from the buzz say like 7 years ago. At that time I was looked at like some cowboy when I said that we pull trees with trucks and skid loaders. Lukily Jer Beranek backed me up later in the thread.
Nice to see many took the words right out of my mouth this time.
We have never broken a rope pulling a tree over. I saw one once at another tree service and I said it was going to break just before it did.
Often times it's a much safer option to pull a nasty tree over.
Vehicle speed is needed for trees with little or no hinge wood/ Extremely hollow or rotten trees where the rope needs to be kept fairly tight through most of the motion of the fall; so that the rope doesn't slack and the tree doesn't go to the side.
Pulling is good for cluster messes too and widow makers.

You have to know your rope, the feel of correct tension, good communication, good driver, good feller.
 
I was thinking the same thing X, things have changed around the buzz. We have been pulling trees over since I was on my dads jobs as a little kid ( I think). I did it with trucks back in the day on my own jobs as well,but have been using Minis to pull over trees since 08..Never have broken a rope pulling anything but I have put a backup once or twice ,just in case.
 
All the time. 4X4 pickup, bucket truck, chip truck, chipper winch, wheel loader, backhoe, excavator, 5:1 b/t with up to 4 guys on it, or some combination of the above. Whatever it takes. When the opportunity arises to SAFELY put a tree on the ground with only a few minutes set up, we usually take it. It's all about knowing weights, rope strengths, mechanical advantage, physics and our own skills/limitations. You know, the same sets of skills we use during all tree rigging operations.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
How often do you pull a trunk/tree over with a vehicle?

What safeguards do you have in place if you do?

Have you ever broken a rope when pulling with a vehicle? If so, what was the rope diameter?

I'm fishing here in the pool of tribal knowledge. Of course I have my answers and they'll come out after some discussion.
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Yes, but not as often as with a rope puller, mostly because of a lack of vehicle access (lots of manicured lawns and golf communities.)

I personally prefer not to use a vehicle when structures or power lines are nearby since the amount of tension on the line is harder to pin down. Using a MA type of system by hand gives more tactile feedback. Also I believe most people over estimate the amount of pull their vehicle or which can provide. Terry Hale has a YouTube video analyzing the pull provided by a pickup at the 11 minute mark and his calculations are correct. He doesn't delve into coefficients of friction, but does cover the maximum case well.

I'll also admit that my reluctance to use the chipper's winch more often stems from the fact that I abuse the Amsteel by dragging it across brush and/or pavement all the time. If we do use the winch we usually will add a backup line and wedges.

I did come across some inch and a quarter poly line that is normally used to pull high tension power lines. I sold a section to another guy I sub for a few times a month and watched him drag a 14,000 lb trackhoe uphill on pavement trying to pull over a whole tree with too much holding wood. It was an impressive sight.
 
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Forgot to answer all of your questions: Safeguards? None. Usually, we prefer to have one of the lessor skilled groundsmen doing the pulling (driving) so that the 2 most skilled people on the crew are the ones making the cut and checking the line tension by hand/directing the driver. And no, we've never broken a line and never had any major problems, issues or close calls.
 
Jeff said:
Forgot to answer all of your questions: Safeguards? None. Usually, we prefer to have one of the lessor skilled groundsmen doing the pulling (driving) so that the 2 most skilled people on the crew are the ones making the cut and checking the line tension by hand/directing the driver. And no, we've never broken a line and never had any major problems, issues or close calls.
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"Directing the driver."

For me it's always been of utmost importance to have a skilled person standing off to the side of the pull vehicle directing the driver. This person should be able to see the whole tree, the whole drop zone and have a clear view of the feller and their escape path.
 
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