pulling ropes with vehicles

I was wondering how many people out there routinely pull ropes with vehicles, instead of MA.

My thought is with MA, you can judge the max force you could possibly produce, reducing the chance of overloading the rope or the holding wood of the tree being cut down.
With a vehicle, you could slip on the gas and blow one of those resulting in disaster.

It took me seeing (not doing) two broken ropes (one pulled by truck and one pulled by a bobcat) and two near disasters to realize that this may not be the best way to do it.

For several years now I have refused to pull with vehicles but if I am contracting out work the contractor gets mad because I am wasting time setting up MA.

Dave
 
That's a tricky one to me. I believe that the safest bet would be mechanical advantage. However, I have no problem using a machine to pull a large tree over- provided that the man driving is from my crew and that he is familiar with what NOT to do. I also check the tension on the line before I finish the cut and give clear orders not to pull until the hinge is properly formed and all is clear.
But I think that those who can't wait three minutes to work properly (setting up the proper gear) are sadly missing the big picture.
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Although I am not too familiar with the code letters MA, I think I have an idea. I ran into a situation many of years back where a landscaper hired me to "just get it on the ground" kind of deal. When we first spoke about working with each other he had asked about my rates. I told him $175 a job, no matter how long it took. I saw the tree that morning and the smart thing would have been to brush one side out and then flop it, but my balls were really big that day and I wanted to be the big tree killer( and make really quick cash). I set a line with the throwball and hung a old 1/2 climbing line. This was a really big White Ash next to a new pool and pool house. Rather than set up a come a long with pulleys and grigris I tied it to the hitch of the Landscapers mason dump. I put a fat box in the tree, knowing it had a far way to come over. I made my back cut with the 066 and it started to go way crooked. I must have hit something in the final cut of my box( nail etc.) The back cut went above the hinge by at least 3". Scary stuff. The tree did come over ( with a little coaxing from the throttle, a wedge and a prayer), but that was a very scary experience. Moral of the story, Know who is on the other end of the rope, no matter what is pulling it and don't be an idiot thinking you can conquor every tree with one cut. This was a really big tree I did on a Sunday and I think I looked more like an ass because I almost shit myself and it didn't go smooth. ( I have other good stories, but I'll save 'em for another day)
 
One other thing on the last note of the initial post, If the contractor you are working for can't wait for you to do your job the correct way, you should shop for a new contact. In my experience, you have to wait for a LONG time to get paid as a Sub to begin with. Let 'em know you are the best and safest at what you. That's why you are still in business.
 
Gosh Trevor,

I appologize for being cryptic. I did forget where I was writing this.

MA means mechanial advantage.

Tom / Mark, perhaps you could set up an FAQ (frequently asked questions) section with frequently abreviated words.
 
I pull trees over all the time with loaders and big trucks . I'd much rather pull over a huge tree over this way , but I also use MA . If it is an INSURANCE cut I am putting it on my F250 front hook , 4 wheel low . If you pull too hard you might up root the tree . Now I'm not a cheap climber , I buy ropes all the time and MA will save your ropes and a truck will wreck them . Also , I've been a Sub for quite some time and never had a problem getting paid . When it comes to subbing you have to be like bread and milk ...pay for it when you get it !
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I AGREE WITH MARK, IN EFFECT I HAVE NO PROBLEM USEING A VEHICLE, AS LONG AS THE MAN IN THE TRUCK HAS EXPERENCE, YOU CAN BARBER CHAIR A TREE, OR PUT IT BACKWARDS PRETTY EASILY. THERE ARE A COUPLE OTHER RULES WE FOLLOW, THAT BEING
1)NO 1/2 LINES USED IN A CASE LIKE THAT, A BULL LINE IS MANDATORY.
2) TRUCK IN 4X4 LOW (IF NO 4X4 ON SITE, AT LEAST LOW)
3)A SPOT MAN STANDING NEXT TO DRIVER TO HELP COMUNICATIONS(HE ALSO CHECKS LINE TENSION ON ROPE WHEN YOU START)
 
I am a firm believer in MA and use it all the time in many different situations,I feel I have much more control of the situation and can be more hands on when your not sure of the co-workers with you.
Drivers have let the trucks and or bobcat move foward before pulling which gives me a bad feeling although there are ways around that.I would rather use a bobcat than a truck.
 
Hmmmmmmmmm, well i've had this post sitting hear a month from a similar conversation; i offer it in its entirety:

A while back we were talking about a climber’s/ gymnast’s connection; and seemed to have found a pattern amongst us! For me the comparison goes much deeper than that of just the swinging and balance.

In gymnastics, you progress into more difficult tricks, as your scope enlarges and talent, alignment of power increases. But, you always wade in with a wealth of power to the task; one that so much overrides what you are attempting so completely; that the controlled motion flows with grace and power; using all forces available to achieve your goal; while minimizing those that stand against you. You fined that pointing your toes, staying tight etc. not only looks good ; but is mechanically correct, as it provides more leveraged swing, with less play in the machine of motion; thereby yielding the most power from the input. You see how the fine points of balance and timing come into play in the controlled motion; and learn to apply them. This is the connection to me!

In the scenario presented of Billy-Bob, sliding sideways, burning rubber in a truck attempting to pull over a tree; there is no grace; there is no overwhelming force ready to imperceptibly correct any hesitancy of motion ushering towards your goal. This does not provide overwhelming positive force.

We pull trees with trucks; that are sometimes going to go where we want them any way! Sometimes we put a 3/1 on the load (tree). Of course you can only schedule this; with plenty of travel; a lot of this is generous overkill though. We also walk the backcut to a point of failure/fold before urging it down; that point where the pull at high leverage point will commit the fall into the desired ‘box’ with the most ‘controlling’ (holding) wood to usher its motion (right this way please sir……). For the more controlling wood on the drop into a well-placed/formed hinge; the more control! We find that by not setting a running bowline to the top; but rather running the line down the back side of the fall as a brace/ pushrod, clove hitching to the trunk; we can go higher for more leverage on the center of balance. Dropping the back/face cut also grants more leverage to the pull. Also, if we can get the line into the tree to be cocked back rather than straight up; we can get more torque through a wider range. I’ve never read this, but it seems to me that the bend as the line traces over the top, wants to straighten out with the more pressure applied, so besides the direct pull, you have that bend trying to straighten out working with you; the same for the self-torqueing rig! They both seem to me to want to pull from the hitch; and leverage a push at the bend as they seek to straighten out; indeed I have seen where the longer this leg is, the more leverage it seems to exert on rolling out or ‘dumping its bucket’. Just another example of a lesson on the ground; teaching also one in the air! For the controls on gravity of line, facecut and holding fibre; are all pervasive in both. All this force and pull is to bring the tree into the facecut with more controlling hinge wood than it would have had otherwise. Also; playing and working with all this, to make it better can sharpen an understanding of hinging wood fiber in rigging limbs.

A lot of this we do for positive motion; a lot for pulling a tree forward with a beefier hinge of holding wood than it would have had otherwise to usher it to the ground more controlled; coupled with the wide mouth hinge to allow this motion to flow unhindered. We seek to make the hinge hang on a long time; for once it shears we don’t have any control over speed or direction. We see the facecut as a chock taken away from a tire, allowing free flow of motion through a range. A lot of what we usher is formed in clearing the way for favourable forces to flow unhindered. This range (arc) of motion can be increased by making a wider facecut. To give this mechanical instruction to the gravity powered machine to move through this wider arc before shearing as the faces meet. The resultant hinge provides brake force and steering through this range to an extent, the better, stronger more elastic, lively the fiber; the more control is possible.

Other things we do to allow this to work is to make a wide mouthed, deep hinge, without the face cuts being crossed at all. If they cross; they make a hinge, within a hinge that closes too early for it is only as wide as the kerf; causing seizing or shearing as both faces are pitted against each other in this small space. Sometimes we can use the resulting compressive force of a hinge within a hinge to our advantage, especially on just one side but that is way out at the ex-stream! We leave the face wide, to give the mechanical instruction/allowance for the machine (hinge) to have a wide sweep, for when the faces meet; it must shear off; and is then a free agent. All these things are machine instructions; you must give the ‘program’ the right instructions for the proper control and ushering of that which passes through this machine.

We also plunge the nose of the bar into the center of the face cut horizontally (there is a safe way to do this, and a wrong way); as to remove the oldest, stiffest wood in the center. This leaves 2 hinges; one on either side of the center punch; these hinges are younger, more flexible wood; that flex more without snapping (in good wood; ie. Live Oak , pine etc.). . We also eliminate the fiber on the outside of the cut (especially pines); as it seems so ‘leathery’; so we ride just the select; not too stiff or leathery fiber down. This also gives you a nice whole to site the drop through! Using a wedge from the back, while pulling from high leverage in the front; so it comes over with a beefier, wide hinge of more elastic material, for very slow, controlled drops confidently. This grants more control over direction and speed; the less speed, the less impact. The more of a glancing blow ( some force of the total moving sideways); the less impact! We seek to have the beefiest hinge possible, that are the most flexible. We arrange the fibres within that hinge to pull differently to adjust the balance of the head’s path; as it all flows into the facecut. Which tells it how far it can flow undisturbed; and when to start to separate and from what point; as it ushers our gravity powered machine through its arc of motion. This, doesn’t seem to have quite the capacity to adjust an off-balanced head as a full hinge; so I don’t use it in extreme circumstances of this.

We also drop the resultant force on a mattress of limbs, sometimes old tires covered with limbs and make mechanical fuses out of the leading limbs to dissipate force. All these factors combining and multiplying, and we can drop more weight with less impact; and no digging into the ground. The mattress of limbs also help to keep the saws cutting the trunk from hitting steel braid or dirt; by giving a buffer zone.


You have to do everything right, in good wood to usher such grace safely. You must make the hinge perfectly, feed into it’s apex on the release cut, and maintain a steady speed on the drop; don’t cause it to stall with too much control! The stump takes a lot of the load (brakeforce of fall), it will shift under ground (can break pipes!) so must be sound.

So we leave the face wide, to give the mechanical instruction/allowance for the machine (hinge) to have a wide sweep, for when the faces meet; it must shear off; and is then a free agent. As you pull the truck forward, sometimes you can lose traction if the pull is directed up. So we will redirect the pull off a trunk (with pulley) to the truck to alleviate this; putting weight in the bed helps also, sometimes in sugar sand, we will let some of the air out of the tires for more positive traction/power. In rigging and drops, we seek not to cut through the hinge, but maintain it’s machinery. We find 3 positions for the hinge; Fall, Hold and then Fhold in between the 2 others; we seek to Fhold for more controlled slower motion; manipulating the holding wood for different pulls side to side.

Same for the redneck crane, generous, overwhelming force; judiciously applied with ready reserve to faultlessly usher everything to your goal. The hinge is the machined that must be made perfectly to function at it’s maximum. A lot of guys I’ve seen use a truck, don’t walk the hinge cut to a point where the mule (truck) can pull it easily; this has gone for guys felling trees, or lifting limbs off houses. They sit and fight the holding wood uselessly, instead of waiting for the right time when the machine (hinge) can work; to easily pull the member through its range. You have to have a feel for the forces present and how to stack them on your side; and minimize how they stack against you. A truck; judiciously used can be a readily available source of power and overwhelming force; in it’s own range; just like Tiny!

-KC

And, if i remeber write, some of the blame goes to Murphy! All together: "BAD MURPH", "BAAAAAAAAAD MURPH".
 
Hmmmmmmmmm, i guess that i could've broken it up over several posts.......... wood that be bites, bytes or bights; i'm confused!
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!

Perhaps you are write, smaller digestible pieces should prevail; but in trade, some assembly would be required. So please forgive and not forbid a big picture shot from time to time, of the interlaced controls and powers of a system!

As i said, it was a held post, that covered an on going conversation at the time; so it treated an ongoing multi-level conversation that curiously is reflected hear.

Wee is for how small wee ants wee are to the giants wee manipulate!

i is for the humility that i have as i offer my 2cents at this site; sour eye you felt so short changed!
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Outta here!
-KC
 
Has anyone ever had the experience of pushing trees over with a loader? This is a whole new ball game. Instead of making your back cut above your notch you make it below. This leaves a shelf so the but can't be pushed off the stump. Another neat trick I learned while logging is to make my notch cut out the center then plunge cut your back cut leaving a strap in the back holding the tree up. When the strap is cut "timber". This works well with trees that already have a hard lean in the direction of fall.
 
Eric Soroenson i think invented plunge cutting the center of the hinge out. In my post above; it is buried.

It leaves the more flexible outside, springy, younger wood to flex and guide! Also in logging, causes less splintering up the spar for a higher yield of lumber! As the older, less flexible, splitering wood fibers are the ones punched out! Also, if plunge cut all the way through to the back side, provides an nifty 'everything being equal' gun site for the fall.

The limitations i have found with this are basically 2. You are eliminating wood, so the rest must be sound! And, it limits the effect of holding wood on the corners of the hinge, as it can't leverage the pull of the holding wood through the center 'post' of the tree; for it is gone!

-KC
 
i think so too. But without step (from coming 2" up from apex) on conventional hinge; they always quote a risk from the slanted face slamming and then sliding backwards on the flat, lower one. Of course you have to cut threw hinge instead of letting it tear, to do that. On a wide face or humboldt face, if the slide (formed as free facecuts meet) helps to determine where the log lands, it serves it up forward, rather than backwards like conventional face.

i am a firm believer in wide facecut, perfectly meeting - not intersecting facecuts, no cutting through hinge for drops. Unless there is some precise thing i am trying to effect.

Eye see the face cut as a directional device, a mechanism to dictate when the hinge will have to shear or tear; also like taking the chock out from a tire- to allow force to flow un-impeded.

A long time ago, they sold 2 sighting sticks for lining up at corners of hinge, bringing the other ends together in point, and they would point to where the fall was. Actually, any 2 sticks of same length will do. The point is you face the tree to the lay, then manipulate the holding wood from the sides to adjust for off balance weight, or pushes of other trees. The corners of the hinge cuts provide the most levraged pulls on the load (log falling while being controlled by hinge), so the stick sight from there. Nipping the corners can help narrow the focal range of the drop, for balanced falls; also minimzes pushing forces that emulate from corners as hinge closes.

With the center punch deal, the holding wood effect is minimized, i think. But the riskier Dutchman step effects seem to work with the center punched hinge. Whenever, i center punch a hinge i am looking to maximize hinge sweep. So, i schedule in other strategies that give this same machine command. i am using a wide face cut, coming into the apex of the face on backcut, with perfectly meeting- nonintersecting face cuts. Sometimes, i eliminate some of the wood from the sides, behind hinge, so that the saw can come through quicker (if i choose) and throw better into hinge. To have this pre-staged, ready to access that extra speed if you need , at that moment is a very powerful strategy.

Once, i have a nice hinge machine going, my next thing is to,use more of it, yet maintain the same load; for more control, slower fall. I do this by pulling with high line, and wedging from back, to tip slowly into face with meatier hinge. That is meatier because of pressuring the same log into the hinge earlier, then letting the hinge work; not cutting through it.

i have taken these scenarios, and turned them sideways to serve limbs into riggings; while self tightenning the lines as they do. Very effective strategy!

-KC
 
There is alot more to making a notch than what the text book shows. I beleive too in the open face 90 degree notch. It gives you control all the way to ground. When working with the open face notch you want to cut even the apex. When working with the old 45 degree notch sometimes you want to cut above when you pull line is placed high. However when you are using a machine like a loader or skidder to push the log over you need to cut below your notch as to not push the but off the stump. I also believe in plunge cutting my back cut when notching trees with a hard lean leaving a strap in the back to hold the tree until I have cut a good hinge. Another technique when notching a tree with lean that is 90 degrees off from the diretion of fall is to plumb down measure that distance from the butress and aim the that much more opposite the lean as to be on your mark.
 
D. Douglas Dent wrote a good book on timber falling. Check him out:
http://www.ddouglasdent.com/


The two sticks are called gunning sticks. You could make one out of a wooden zig-zag tape but it wouldn't be useful for big trees. On one job I had a really narrow slot to lay the tree down. I need to have "dead nuts" accuracy so I made up gunning sticks out of 1x2s and a bolt. That way I could mark the exact corners of my face. The tree came down right where I predicted
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Tom
 
i think that Dent's book is one of the best i've seen; totally echo Tom's words about it.

The scenarios and mechanical examinations are second to none about hinging. i have taken these images, and turned sideways, realizing that the pull was down, and not out; and used them for rigging in tree. Excellent! Hinging wood is hinging wood in tree or on ground!

i favour the widemouth facecut; for when the faces meet, wide or narrow; directional and speed control is lost. So a wide mouth allows control of drop or rig longer, by not letting the faces meet so quickly. This is why, not crossing facecuts is so important (except for special purposes/effects); for as Dent points out; it makes a 'face within a face'; or a hinge that closes early, within the main hinge. i look at these things as mechanical instructions to the machine of the hinge that allows and ushers movement. i believe that view is very powerful analyzation of forces that reveals a lot; and is something to wok on and perfect!
 

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