New Ascender. You think it's safe?

Jamin_Mayer

Jamin_Mayer

Location
Longmont, CO
New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

I found this online today. What do y'all think about it? I am wondering if your line would could come out while thrusting upward. Am I seeing this correct?
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Black Diamond NForce
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

Thats a very safe design Jamin - very clever! Locks on to the rope and easy to use with a trigger finger rather than thumb.

I'd need to know how it reacts on 11mm rope in a factor 1 fall first. It doesn't condone use in activities outside of mountaineering. Which is what gives Petzl the edge - they consider industrial uses and give more info.

I'm sure it would be great for tree ascent, but its never safe to assume!
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

Maybe there is some type of "lock" on the back side. In both pictures you only see the one side, so there might be something opposite that we are not seeing.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

I have used many different ascenders, Petzl, Kong etc but I have found these Jumars; http://www.nexternal.com/armynavy/images/jumar-rope-ascenders.gif to be the best.

The Jumar ascenders just look and feel safer in my opinion, more robust than Petzl or Kong, they also do not have sharp spikes that would rip the rope they are more like pointed dimples.

They are bright yellow so you can find them in the undergrowth and they can easily accomodate our fatty fatty 13 mm ropes.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

"The Jumar ascenders just look and feel safer in my opinion, more robust than Petzl or Kong, they also do not have sharp spikes that would rip the rope they are more like pointed dimples."

Grover, is that your assumption, or what the manufacturer states? Its an important difference when it comes to safety. 'Ripping a rope' is OK depending on the rope type and diameter. If the rope doesn't rip it might 'chop'. I know which I prefer. Don't wait until the accident to find out.

An opinion on robustness isn't the same as a fact. Sometimes we have to hang our life on an opinion, but its not a pro-active approach to daily safety on site.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

Laz2, the dimpled cams reduce the number of nicks in your rope which you get with the Petzls.

Also, I am never be in a position to create a fall onto the ascenders which would cause the rope to rip or chop.

From my experience the Jumars are simply better ascenders than the Petzls.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

I'm not picking on you Grover.

I'm trying to help people realise that ascenders are designed for mountaineering/caving/industrial kernmantel ropes. These have the strength in the core with a protective sheath. This is opposite to double braids (e.g.Blaze) that share the strength betwen sheath and core, and single braids (e.g.Hi Vee)that have the strength in the sheath and a core filler for good knot holding. Thats a generalisation, but the conflicting design concept can cause serious safety concerns when no back up rope is applied such as tree climbing. I know how my 11mm kernmantle ascent rope and ascender will react in a fall. I have no idea what would happen to the thick sheaths and fall forces on a Blaze or Hi Vee. So I'm not going to go there till tests have been done.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

Thanks Laz2, for that info,

No treeclimber should ever be in a position to create a dynamic shock load onto the ascenders, right?
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

Have you ever climbed thinking you were over a branch, only to find it was over a twig 20cm higher up. And that twig snaps? Or its a brittle branched tree like Larch and you have to make a high shot. You're over several branches in case one breaks, but there will be a dynamic load as it catches on another? Or you climb the rope to the branches, then use the branches as aid whilst sliding the ascenders and a branch snaps or your foot slips?
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever climbed thinking you were over a branch, only to find it was over a twig 20cm higher up. And that twig snaps? Or its a brittle branched tree like Larch and you have to make a high shot. You're over several branches in case one breaks, but there will be a dynamic load as it catches on another? Or you climb the rope to the branches, then use the branches as aid whilst sliding the ascenders and a branch snaps or your foot slips?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much it Laz. You've described the SRT shock loading scenario well. Any thoughts on the hybrid statics like NE Ropes 'The Fly' (for example)? Is this rope depending on its cover or core for primary strength?

The new Black Diamond ascender looks promising. I wish it had 2 connection points on the bottom of the ascender (one for a footloop).
-moss
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever climbed thinking you were over a branch, only to find it was over a twig 20cm higher up. And that twig snaps? Or its a brittle branched tree like Larch and you have to make a high shot. You're over several branches in case one breaks, but there will be a dynamic load as it catches on another? Or you climb the rope to the branches, then use the branches as aid whilst sliding the ascenders and a branch snaps or your foot slips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, great post Laz2, you've pretty much summed up what I was thinking as well.

I was playing devil's advocate when I asked 'no climber should ever create a dynamic load on to the ascenders, right?'

This is why I switched to the Jumars from the Petzls as I felt that everytime the rope dropped down with a judder caused by that little twig 20 cm above my intented point snapping - I started thinking about those nasty cam spikes on the Petzls and the unknown effect they would have on my Yale XTC.

I saw the cams on the Jumars and thought 'right, that will give me more peace of mind on the long haul up on SRT'.

That I guess is why I like them so much.

A back up rope is the answer on long ascents up to the top, though, your right on that.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there is some type of "lock" on the back side. In both pictures you only see the one side, so there might be something opposite that we are not seeing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you click for details you get a pdf of details. It does have a 'push and slide' lock. Neat idea You can thumb the cam without fear of opening it.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on the hybrid statics like NE Ropes 'The Fly' (for example)? Is this rope depending on its cover or core for primary strength?

The new Black Diamond ascender looks promising. I wish it had 2 connection points on the bottom of the ascender (one for a footloop).
-moss

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Moss

I use the fly for DdRT and RAD ascent. But its too much of an unknown quantity for SRT without a back up rope. For that I use an 11mm EN 1891 Type A true kernmantle designed for industrial use, and Petzl croll and ascension and Spelegyca. This way, I don't have to worry about shock loads. I know its good for a 6kN load, with a 5kN back up.
 
Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

I got a Mountian Gear Mag today. They show the NForce ascneders in there too. In the photo they provide you can see a "zig-zag" design where you can prevent the cam from opening all the way. So, my question is answered. They seem perfectly fine. However, like stated before, they only have one hole at the bottom.
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BTW Black Diamond has a swivel called the Rotor . This is nearly $20 cheaper than Petzl's Swivel.
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Re: New Ascender. You think it\'s safe?

[ QUOTE ]

BTW Black Diamond has a swivel called the Rotor . This is nearly $20 cheaper than Petzl's Swivel.
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[/ QUOTE ]

With the Petzl swivel I believe you're paying for the 36kn rating as opposed to 26kn for the Rotor. But... 26kn is pretty darn strong.
-moss
 
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