I tend to stick with 1/2”Per same DYNAMIC (not static) load;
the stronger wired connection routing thru stronger line
that load impedes less on rope's MBS,
yields LESS elastic/dampening response.
Thus, delivering more raw/less softened hit to all connecting points thru the rope pipeline tool chain set.
So 3/4" gives more strength on hold; but less forgiveness on hit than 1/2".
Proper tool for proper job.
Slamming stiffest /strongest rope to a dynamic load blindly might sound like answer to use all the time; might say similar to CYA no one using less than needed @POS, but not actually being a scientific wrestler!
So SWL may be 5x or even 10x depending on source/shituation
>>But 50x can be overkill, and not in the blindly expected good way IF dynamic forces(about always at least to plan for).
i always kept some high elastic 3/8" or 7/16" around for rigging lighter off of softer support to take out as much hit as possible, removing the stiffer 1/2" line where not needed when could give problems to connected support by the wiring of the rope pipeline of force.
While I agree they'll always change, the changes over time will be minor compared to going from "I've got an anchor-sling and a 1/2 rope to re-purpose as bull-rope" to owning a full 'heavy duty' kit, what may've looked 'obsessive' was just me "taking a class" to learn what I had to -- the principles behind safe dismantling-/limbing-riggings are FAR more complex than climbing (I did a similar 'class' when learning to climb, google/articles & youtube & forums, only way I know to 'take a class' on such topics!)Chances are your kits will always be changing and evolving as you do so don't obsess on it too much.
Good luck cheers stay safe
I am only using the 3/4" at the moment is that it's short 110' and was a hell of a deal. 5/8" is my next purchase 120'.
How often is 110' proving short for you? My longest (a 1/2) is hardly longer than 120's and while I can just tie two together I've yet to do soI’m all about 150’ of 1/2” don’t have to add a second line, has enough for ma etc
Gap is awesome!! I like to support Wesspur when I can but my last like 5 orders were TEC and Ice Tail from Gap, it's so cool to have free s&h, I get an idea for something I wanna make and just order how much TEC I need@Birdyman88 Thank you for all the math! It’s been a long time since I’ve done those types of calculations, and I’ve forgotten too many of them... I shall have to do some refreshing now.
On the note of gear purchasing without the Big 3, check out Gap Arborist Supply. Also, consider using Sirius bull rope, it’s less expensive than some and has held up really well for us. We use it all the time, and sometimes on some rather heavy pieces without any problems, and it seems to be reasonably forgiving of new groundies. It’s also very knottable and generally unties fairly easily even when it’s been heavily loaded.
Quoted you & @Reach in same post because of the promotion of Sirius... Are you guys familiar w/ just how much weaker a bull-rope it is than nystron, polydyne or atlas? I can't urge strongly-enough to read the short article (and/or watch the short accompanying video) by Yale at the top of my signature below, dynamic-capacity is the metric for rigging (okay for "routine dismantling", I know lifting/mech-advntg/other non-dynamic, lesser-utilized configurations don't benefit from extra dynamic-strength only tensile strength)+1 in the Sirius..
I think i can get the yellow 16mm for like.. under a buck a foot last time i looked.. & 20mm for $1.39?
Whatever it was, it was $60-$70 less per hank than the "big 3".. as Reach would say..
The 3/4" 110' I use is for trunk wood and it has yet to be short on a job.How often is 110' proving short for you? My longest (a 1/2) is hardly longer than 120's and while I can just tie two together I've yet to do so
Re diameters, KevinS your post strikes at the heart of the point I was making in my SWL/WLL thread, that it's (*zero* personal offenses meant!!) inefficient and a bad choice to "double-duty" a rigging rope, a good bull rope for running/snubbing logs should exhibit high dynamic-capacity, this is a function of elasticity, but w/ mech.advantage (or lifting/hauling/etc) there's no need to account for shock-loading and static/tensile strength is the relevant factor and, here, elasticity isn't offering you any help / may induce noticeable losses of precision.
This ^^^ does not mean (IMO) that "the optimal rigging rope should be sufficient for both activities", it means you should deal-with using your more-elastic bull rope for lifting/mech.advtg or you should get a 2nd, static-line to use for that, but most-certainly not compromise your primary bull-rope! Primary bull-rope is for the majority of the rigging we do - which is inherently a "controlling&slowing dynamic downward forces" situation - which is why Atlas/Polydyne/Nystron are so superior, their capacities for, say, snubbing a log are massively above stuff like Stable Braid/Sirius/etc.
Ropes are cheap enough, heck retired climb-lines are often a suitable "stiff/static 1/2 line" so that's simple, it's not worthwhile to skimp on a true bull-rope's dynamic-capacity so it can double as a pulling line sometimes, 'right tools/right jobs' etc
Has anybody noticed a significantly-improved response using 5/8 bull rope instead of 1/2 on ringed-rigging setups? Have found my 5/8 to perform so much better that I rarely use my 1/2 (only when I need its length), FWIW I err on the side of extra friction as much as able to (ie have had to feed rope to get a stuck-log to begin descent more than once before )
Yeah it is awesome and mine's an older Sherrill unit (no Notch stamping), why do you ask was there a bad batch or something? (I've heard no complaints on product-quality for any of these solid-state friction anchors, would be eager to hear if anyone's heard others' issues!)One last thing and I’m just curious, that Safebloc you just got? I hear they’re pretty awesome. Is there a name on it from the manufacturer or distributer?
I like that in a sense but generally dislike this type of analogy if it isn't spot-on and in this case it's comparing something stopping itself by "pushing" (brake system pinching the wheels) to something getting stopped by "pulling" (of the rope tethered to it) At any case its point is simple and, I hope, universally understood&un-disputed: you run logs as much as practical, you don't snub unless you have to, etc but I don't see it having implications to elasticity-percentage.It might’ve been here that I read someone comparing it to stopping your car at a stop sign. You don’t lock up your brakes from 50mph 20 feet before a stop sign, right? You slow down before stopping. I like that analogy, makes a lot of sense to me and wish I remember who wrote it.
The shock-absorbing characteristics of a line....how would that be causing more spar movement exactly? I feel like people almost picture an elastic band, as-if a 500lbs log would descent and, immediately after reaching peak-force, the elastic contracts and the 500lbs log rises. That is certainly not what happens. What happens is that when the groundie is trying to run that log, the line stretches a lil and 'equalizes' with the load/log until it has come to the ground; it does not 'recoil'/rebound/rise in fact I wish there were another term to use because "elasticity", when talking of <5% cordage, is almost an improper term ('yield' is probably a better way to put it) and going from a 1% to 3% will not change the fact that your groundie's running of the load determines swing-of-spar and, contrary to your general sentiment actually, more-dynamic cordage (nystron over stable braid, say) also inherently reduces peak-forces in the rigging system - including that spar that is anchoring your sling & part of the system - by virtue of absorbing force itself, this is true whether we're working that 500lbs log from 30' or 130', in both cases the higher dynamic-capacity wins at reducing the forces that hit your spar when your groundie's running/catching(even snubbing) that load.Strength of all components is definitely important and so is elasticity in the line, I’m not saying it isn’t, but the difference between that 3% or 1% means fuckall if you’re being bodily flung around like a muppet at the top of a spruce spar.
A good 1/2, used properly, can certainly move some serious weight!! Random thought I had yesterday- what's stopping you from just grabbing the center of your 1/2 and "doubling up" when you need more strength? Since the rope's folded in half it's touching itself but should be close to zero rope-on-rope-friction since they'd move together..I had a 3/4" rope that was stolen a couple of years ago that I never bothered to replace. I can do all of my rigging with half inch and when bigger trunk pieces must be rigged I set up a double whip tackle to lower them, otherwise we just bomb trunk pieces or fell them.
I cannot speculate as to how they decided to redesign the safebloc for their product. it's quite possible that my thought process evolved into the THT or that someone from Notch had a similar idea.edited-in: upon seeing your username... was reading last night and saw a post by you for splicing the Bloc into a sling horizontally instead of vertically and couldn't help wonder Is that the whole reason Notch/Sherrill came out with that triangle-THT?
Couldn't agree more! It's intimidating for sure, all that's involved w/ a strong-skill-level in dynamic-rigging (guys like Reg Coates, Lawrence Schultz are artists at it IMO) and w/ the magnitude of risk involved I see it as essentially akin to life support ie only given less-seriousness due to subconscious-biases that'd place my body over a free-falling log, but so far as I approach it I see it as black/white ie you don't, can't, mess-up w/ rigging (if you want a decent career, and one's career tends to be one's life....I'm approaching it very conservatively and w/ full appreciation of my goals of being allowed on the biggest jobs, rigging the biggest stuff, and know fully-well how disqualifying&ruinous a misstep can be!!)First off, don't try to do too much at once. Learn one skill at a time. Master that skill. Then add on other skills.
Well put! And by "and balancing"...do you mean load-spreading via extra anchors or misphrasing "balancing-with-spiderlegs"?Spider legging and balancing is totally different than negative blocking. Can you use some of the same equipment. Yes, totally. But it is different forces involved.
Sorry man but couldn't disagree more, using a static line(1.1% Stable Braid) on a frictionless block, and controlling the works via basal-bollard, is old-school (and heck 100-200lbs 'nice sized'? Any old climb-line w/ any anchor should be fine for 250lbs if you've got a strong groundie - for my setup, I can rig it so a 150lbs piece isn't heavy-enough to pull the rope through the system and that's w/o taking wraps anywhere unless you count the Safebloc!)As far as negative blocking. Go to Wesspur.com. Look at rigging kits. Buy one with 5/8" stable braid, block, port-a-wrap and slings. This will allow you to rig nice size (100-200lb) pieces easily and safely. I have used on even larger pieces but I always check my physics first.
See sub-200lbs is basically "sawyer can run the load from the canopy" in these friction setupsI have used on even larger pieces
Need to learn my damn Log Impact Force calculator-wheel already (that nifty Samson tool)but I always check my physics first.
Agreed I wouldn't buy anything from them except Safebloc/THT if(/when) getting a 2nd one (from sherrrill/treestuff/notch, any entity under their umbrella)Stay away from treestuff. Ever since Sherrell bought them out service and delivery has tanked. Shame because they are not far from me.
Stick with a kit to start as the pros put these together to work. Don't try to recreate the wheel.
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Wow what an outstanding post have read it multiple times now this is how I see it I like you mention friction as "dab here, dab there" as I think that's one of the cooler attributes in these systems IE not concentrating all stopping-power at end-of-line w/ the bollard, am sure this spreading-out of friction/brakes is what accounts-for the reports of increased smoothness&control with friction-rigging compared to old school: for the same peak-force on the groundie's position on the line, you'd need a bigger initial force in the system obviously since there's built-in-brakes to be overcome, however when the groundie is pulling that rope w/ spread-out "brakes" they're working a more-consistent piece of cordage than one that's essentially un-touched/full-load for its whole run right til the termination-at bollard, heck if you considered a super elastic 10% rope being used it's easier to see how the load would have wayyyy more rope to elongate unrestricted, basically all rope in-system until the bollard, whereas in a modern system the rope would only be able to stretch-out in-between anchor points which means that there's lower peak-elongation of said rope, I wish I could do the math on this to see how the #'s look in real-world scenarios but should be pretty self-evident/intuitive that if you're needing "20 units of friction" to manage a log on a very-elastic line, if you'd used (20) single-unit devices spread-out your elastic line wouldn't have anywhere to elongate remotely as much as if the rope were unimpeded for its entire run until it met 20 units of friction on the bollard. *Less relative-elongation mid-descent should have 'smoother', more consistent feel to it*Have done similar to shown with carabiners together in sling (tighter bend for smaller loads on softer ropes), even spread for softer arc for larger loads etc. Contact radius in round device gives friction not contact distance.
Just using friction as a variable, lower frictions used here to just take initial brunt , metal can be heat sink against heat buildup.
High friction at redirect point reduces control side/leg tensions to reduce loading on redirect.
Used to have huge shackle wet ground numbers off of , and had pin/cotter key (hence some of my pin/cotter key imagery in knotting) for heavier rigging with friction between pulley and limb ratings, and could act as heatsink; aluminum more jealous metal, grabbing heat more evenly across more quickly from neighboring position; thus preferred in cooking, like softer copper that also heats evenly, cast iron too but is more brittle etc. for this job.
Also as sling with carabiner at either end in Clove with the cross on TOP of the limb, not in normal side position, nor crossed under limb, but on top/opposite load pull ; long enough so that carabiners clear limb underneath but try to have some space apart for total spread distance. Not for heaviest loading but very workable to same theory in smaller, within power band for that bend/deformation.
Sometimes go thru eye/ring/shackle/krab device then some metered wood friction after, at same height/angle, for higher angle lifts off of device frictions, lower doesn't reduce loading to control leg. So look for same height or angled lower , dot or 2 of wood friction rub to take some more spikes out of force after device takes peaks. Not enough force nor distance nor turns to concentrate heat build up on wood insulator. Just a dab here and there, it all counts. Another reason for carrying sling/krab sets are just to bend lines slightly to and from 'friction trails' against wood. Have to watch this value more if looking to control fall load faster, just not letting speed build too fast so can snub out final force into ground etc. Preset sling/krab to line trail near climber gives climber ready handle to increase or decrease high frictions on the fly or um drop! Free fall part of force not pulling on frictions, only restricted part of force. careful with speed, in E=MCsquared; speed is the squared variable slight increases in acceleration give greater and greater EXPONENTIAL force increase, just like squared promises..
Rope choice is connection element, with elastic dampening per length of rope in system at peak hit. Rope choice, can make or change whole game just like load weight, frictions, run etc.
arbormaster.com/uploads/files/Samson Arborist Rope Technical Information.pdf
edit:some rope tests standards REQUIRE 5-6 pulls to prove strength, resilience, absorptions etc. on 5th round not 1st pull/drop to assign rating. At the high end of usage, can run past ceiling of power band and be with no headroom; even doing everything the same to the same, successive hits to same line handle differently, as the rope is changed some of which can be slowly recoverable, some perhaps not. Especially when support is pure down vertical trunk column of no give (vs. other angles and positions that framework of tree takes some of the beating for rope, that pure trunk column won't).
I don't disagree with you at all, wasn't my intent to imply a literal, accurate peak-force's value is supposed to be determined (and I fear my comment on "just going-on-gut instead of worrying about #'s" was worded poorly, of course you're going on your gut in-practice, not holding a calculator in-tree)To do the actual math on rigging for one set answer is pretty much an insane notion. Rope wet or dry, exact consistency in rigger, pendulum, drop, rope stretch, tree flex, wind, wood variations, foliage or bud or twig density or angle, was your anchor point tightened and stretched 1/4”, etc this list could be a mile long and to confine to a numerical value is insane. This is why we have an SWL or WLL it bundles the unknowns lowers the base load.
That's awesome I love it, will never forget this one! Had heard it put as "it's always your operation/move" ie you can't put blame on a groundie (or shouldn't?), I agree in-general although obviously groundies can mess things up hell a groundie can intentionally snuff a load to buck you out of a tree if they were so inclined, but I get&agree w/ the sentiment that as rigger you're in charge of outcomes and I LOVE the concept of "kid ran into yard", hadn't really considered the concept of "appearing/moving targets" and love(knowing-about) it, thanksI was always taught if your going to rig you have to own it whether you have to run it to miss a target or lock it off cause a kid just ran into the yard you have to handle the full range if locking it off can cause rigging failure you did it wrong.
If I were you I'd be curious enough to check dates Not that you'd be able to do anything if it were yours but it'd be neat to knowI cannot speculate as to how they decided to redesign the safebloc for their product. it's quite possible that my thought process evolved into the THT or that someone from Notch had a similar idea.
With how often this ^ sentiment is expressed, I'm left dumbfounded at how blocks are still as popular as they are (hell I consider a theoretical block whose wheel has an infinitely adjustable "friction-range", from spinning friction-free[like regular blocks] to full lock-up[like an X-ring of similar diameter], now consider setting this block as your primary/terminal anchor before throwing wood into it:Who would intentionally turn that dial to friction-free? The choice between a Fiori & an Impact Block should be self-evident yet obviously it's notAs to your earlier question I mainly use rings, I have one omni that I rarely use anymore and one 3/4" block that typically gets used in pulling applications.
I see a potential contradiction in your reasoning there-- if worrying about a piece coming-back, said piece wasn't large-enough to warrant double-whipping it....knowing what is/is not going to fly away - even with double-whip setup - is certainly critical, I guess I'm seeing it more as "when working >400lbs wood, especially if you can't run it too far, double-whipping becomes useful", certainly wouldn't want to waste time "specializing" setups for sub-250lbs riggings... For example's sake, in the context of dismantling a 40' Oak with soft-targets below(can land the wood but only gently/in full-control), I would see double-whip as a tool for maybe topping it, then perhaps on some limbs if taking real large ones, but mostly for trunk-wood once it's at "pole-in-ground" stage.As for why not always use double block on heavier pieces, it takes longer to set up and the pieces do not run away from the climber as fast meaning a little more potential for a climber being struck by the piece. The groundie has to to run the rope three times as fast in order to match the speed of traditional blocking down.
Keep in mind, I didn't mention it in my post that your responding to, not only does the groundie need to let it run 3X as fast as normal but he also needs to do so while only controlling 1/3 of the weight of the piece. That's only 1/3 in a friction less setup, that fraction becomes smaller once you introduce a lot of friction up top.I see a potential contradiction in your reasoning there-- if worrying about a piece coming-back, said piece wasn't large-enough to warrant double-whipping it
If all your wanting is to tighten the line, then I agree with you. The 3X speed/ 1/3 weight is using double whip tackle to lower too heavy of loads for a rated rope. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you've written.Probably best to piggy back a 'compression jig' 3:1 etc to mainline to sequentially pull into Porty etc.
Remove jig and then ground control doesn't have to worry about 3xFast etc. as just works the mainline.