nature vs civilization

[Redtree]

Is it true that many arborists prefer thinning and or crown cleaning to reduction. One leaves the tree more natural but natural trees will do what they are designed to do, grow as fast as possible while having just enough taper to support the extension . Trees have to extend as much as the storms during their growth allow in order to compete. They don't care if they fail they want to win the race and they take chances to do so. The extension can be delayed by the application of detailed reduction pruning, improving taper and creating a structure capable of handling more than just average storms. Reduction is not about smaller trees, it's about civilizing the storm that hits the tree. Spreading it over time. Several applications with typically 2.5 inch cuts and smaller. Reducing the likelihood of failure over 2.5 inch when mother natures storm hits all in one gust in one moment. We can lead the urban canopy into a better, slower extending, longer lasting, bigger, stronger structure.
Should we limit or slow the height of the urban canopy via well planned reduction? Or at least where trees are planted where permanence is better than replanting? Not to mention avoiding huge power outages after ice storms?
Where is this too expensive to do?
Where is this too expensive not do do?
I believe I actually just missed a conference titled ' the cost of not managing our tree'. I think it was in the eastern or central usa. Did anyone attend that can comment on how this relates?

 

[Redtree]

I Also wanted to mention this process, in the early stages looks more like basic thinning and corrective pruning. I'm referring above mostly to middle aged trees which are past the point of changing basic structure. Trees that make up the majority of the urban canopy or at least by leaf mass (not by stem count). Trees where correction is not an option and an attempt would be an oxi moron as new problems would be greater due to such large corrective cuts. Instead some badly structured trees can be improved. Improved to a state better than the state of a tree after attempting correction. Sort of like my teeth. They're screwed up and now it's too late for corrective braces. But with some money and a good dentist i could make some improvements.

 

[Redtree]

Reduction screws up the growth but not like an ice storm. And two to five years after reduction some restoration pruning can eliminate or reduce unnatural looking verticle shoots. Which are not unnatural just reactive. Ok I'm gonna shut up, stop replying to myself and go to bed. Please help me with these thoughts in my head.
Goodnight or should I say good morning

 

[joezilla11]

I don't know enough to be able to contribute but I'm not sold on the idea that thinning is the only way to go. I'm very interested in the topic of pruning open grown trees so I'll be following and thanks for posting!

 

[familytreeman]

i read an article in a 'tree services' mag that discussed wind against smaller trees and the differences with thinning vs not

they did not compare reduction vs thinning, but they did show the thinned trees were quite flexible having the wind blowing through them
-
each specie and circumstance is different tho

 

[Mangoes]

Reduction screws up the growth but not like an ice storm. And two to five years after reduction some restoration pruning can eliminate or reduce unnatural looking verticle shoots. Which are not unnatural just reactive. Ok I'm gonna shut up, stop replying to myself and go to bed. Please help me with these thoughts in my head.
Goodnight or should I say good morning

Someone's preparing for his presentation on reduction pruning/practical application of Conservation Arboriculture philosophies!!

 

[Redtree]

You guessed it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[guymayor]

Reduction screws up the growth? Depends on the objective. I find that specified reduction improves growth and form in older trees.
Brittle species with sprawling forms, such as Acer saccharinum
and Carya illinoinensis, are prone to heavy breakage in storms, and
reduction pruning may minimize the problem. For any such “leggy”
plant, first locate the tallest branch, and select a lower lateral that
has room to grow. Cut, repeat with the next tallest branch, then
continue until there are no tips sticking out of the crown outline.
Selective reduction cuts generally work best on upward-facing limbs.
Upright laterals with an angle of at least 60 degrees, no matter their
size, work well as new ends to old branches. Older trees’ longevity
can be extended when declining limbs, even central leaders, are very
gradually reduced back to concentrations of vitality.
Glad to hear that someone's describing practical application of Conservation Arboriculture philosophies!!

 

[Redtree]

Good points
I guess I'm admitting to those that are somewhat against reduction compared to thinning that the after photo for reduction isn't always pretty. And the trees reaction isn't always pretty either. But after few applications the tree can be pruned with a thin/restore application, restoring the natural look and leaving select terminals to extend.
Some trees need more than thinning, they need to a real set back in extension while still growing in diameter.
Also would like to add that quite often the tree does look better. Especially with light application which compliments well with buildings that previously seemed smothered.

 

[guymayor]

All this is good input to offset the nutty anti-reduction bias at ISA, etc. Gotta look a 'after' shots in Tree Time and be slow to judge. Here's a sweetgum; primary objective was less gumballs on driveway. In retrospect it shoulda had more off the top maybe.

 

[Redtree]

Good job Guy
One sided to achieve the goal but way better than removal. And not shaved at the trunk. You can get more of the top next time and the right side too maybe. I've gotta do the same to a row of spruce. Sap on the cars. It's not gonna look great but better than losing them. the end one closest to the road I'm leaving full to cut the funny looking factor in half. Removal was requested. Now if the owner moves out the new people will likely love the trees and deal with the sap. Or maybe the owner will stay and hopefully prune again instead of remove.
Also could recommend planting replacement near that Sweetgum to phase it out. Long term Complicated plan but civilized. Or?

 

[guymayor]

Good idea; planting an oak downslope will be proposed this spring. The place is a B&B owned by the city's mayor so slipnfall concerns are a factor.

 

[Redtree]

Thought I'd try revive this thread with a new issue that really needs attention. Or an old issue that we thought we fixed already.
I was on a site the other day. A so called 'linear park'. There's the first fault. So we are trying to use 'urban forestry' practices to create a park setting. Firstly this should be called a linear forest. It's basically a narrow forest beside a sidewalk. No need for disturbing 'park' trails.
This row of trees is incredibly vulnerable, due to many factors. Firstly, it is a row, more than twice as vulnerable as an edge. Secondly it is largely on a steep hill. Thirdly, the hill faces WSW.
There's a broken mixture of Black Walnut, Sugar Maple, Silver Maple, White Elm, and White Spruce. Throughout this inconsistent mix is a relatively evenly spread population of Manitoba Maples. Many of these will be spared as they are against the residents property. That's a good start.
But the plan is to remove the Manitoba Maples that are 'risky leaners'. Most of these removals lie on the west edge of this narrow row, closest to the road.
The arborist who planned this is probably a good guy and just needs to look further into urban forestry in order to produce a better plan.
Fine, remove these if you must, but not instantly, as that would only increase the vulnerability of this row as a whole. Instead PHASE THEM OUT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT TO PHASE THE BETTER SPECIES IN. NURSE TREES ARE VITAL HERE.
Unfortunately, it is an arborists' tendency to separate the tree from the forest.
If the trees remain as nurse trees, so many other factors of this ecosystem benefit. Firstly, the loss of shaded ground. Now the hot western sun will hit the cool, wet surface and will heat it up and help evaporate the moisture. Secondly the wind buffer will be gone and this will help evaporate the soil. Thirdly, the lofty, textured, leaf And branch litter will be largely chipped and replaced with mulch. The Sugar and Elm will likely suffer the most. The tough walnut will likely just lose a little vigour.
This just seems so narrow sighted. It seems like an attempt to have a one time fix. But it is at make it or break it turning point and looks like this plan might break it, causing another heat island and ruining a nourishing but not ideal setting.
Manitoba maples don't look good, especially broken ones or ones with dead tops. But these problems can easily be mitigated. The risk can be reduced with reduction.
They say replanting is the solution. Yes but Retaining these nurse trees will provide a setting where newly planted trees would not only survive, they would thrive, establish faster, and grow with more upright, better spaced form.
This is no longer a question of 'cleaning' up parks. It is a question of greening up forests.
Thank you for reading
Tell your town and park buddies to read this please.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JontreeHI]

I'm very much on board w reduction pruning. Can't ignore common sense. And it seems to me we are approaching what a confluence of common sense preservation pruning and some wicked cool climbing tools and techniques which make accessing the tips (the site of the work needed to be performed) much easier. We are or should be going in this direction.
Here's a sweetgum reduction from this past rainy week. It was a mess if over extension and lack of taper, some tear ours in the 3-4" range, and 4" was my largest cut. All hand saw work.



Got the chance to catch Guy at the PNW conference, otherwise really enjoying your posts as well redtree.

 

[guymayor]

Looks good Jon!

 

[frashdog]

Quick thoughts...

Understanding differences in species strengths/weaknesses and with respect to typical growth patterns is essential.

Another variable is... Is it a yard tree in the open with lots of wind...or is it a protected stand tree down in a valley that never gets much wind?

 

[Redtree]

severe reduction application due to significant decay. Retained because of significant wound wood and reduction pruning. Biggest cuts 5",5",7". Many small cuts and medium cuts too. Sun will hit inner crown and next reduction might do what mine did. I cut above some and below some of the cuts made by the arborist who did the first reduction, years ago. Maybe 2009. Just noticed photos aren't scaled the same so reduction is not portrayed accurately.

Before you judge, here's the other side, same location.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redtree]

The limb on the left here is not as affected by the decay as much as the upright so took less off

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RopeShield]

Red, I have trouble with long posts and a lot of questions. Start over break it down into parts. Many of us want to be schooled but have trouble sitting still long enough to give a fuck.
What needs to be understood? 1st and foremost is young tree training. Everything else is waste of time if the fundementals of Yng tree training is not fully and completely understood. It's not a level playing field, no field, no court just wilderness.
Love, love pruning. Reductions are both a necessary evil and a godsend.
What's the point? Reach for it!

 

[Redtree]

Young tree training is first. But pretty basic. It's medium and large, often neglected (for the lack of a better word) trees that don't get pruned sensitively enough. Often this is because guys 'scale' up and apply small tree techniques to big trees. What a way to screw up a tree. Don't try to fix bug trees. Influence them. They're alive not objects or buildings.
arborists get called to medium and large trees that are a risk or perceived as a risk. They may need just thinning or light reduction, or heavy reduction. They may only be perceived as a risk, and need nothing. Then you need to educate the client and hope for the best.
Does that tree above have decay below where the pic shows?
If it's too long a post don't read it. But yes I can go crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk