Municipal VS Self Employment

[neums]

Outstanding thread, thanks for making it!

I'm approaching ten years as a municipal arborist, and like most things it's a real double-edged sword. Having also experienced a few years of private tree work for other companies and myself, these are some reflections in a nutshell:

Purpose - There is nothing more gratifying to me than completing a quality tree job, from the initial consult and estimate, doing the actual work, to following up with clients and getting paid (maybe even praised). In government work, it is rare that you are the sole facilitator of any process. Spend requests, purchasing, reports, project coordination, policy review, hiring/firing, training, and outreach are all things that make you a cog in the machine instead of being the machine. There is still a lot of potential for feeling fulfilled at having done a good job, but often your accomplishments are simply something needed for the next person to build upon and there isn't the same notion of ownership. Also you spend a lot of time waiting for others to get back to you before you can complete what you need to before passing it onto the next person. It can be frustrating for sure. I consider myself very lucky that I get to actually facilitate a few programs that include tree climbing and running a saw, so during the average month I am able to engage in a lot of the activities that drew me to tree work in the first place. I have spent many years planting trees with our program and goddamn if that isn't an inherently gratifying feeling to revisit sites that you've planted in previous years.

Time and compensation - This has always been a "grass is always greener" scenario for me. Some crews I've worked on started at 9am and maybe worked four days a week on average, which leaves a lot of free time for other work or leisure. The flip side of this is worrying about making rent. Municipal employment has allowed me to take full advantage of planning my work and free time. When I was on the municipal crew there were a lot of overtime opportunities, and the benefits like paid vacation and actually starting a retirement plan are very valuable to me. Something else that was brought up is the notion of service years to retirement. I've been fortunate to have joined my current municipality when the service increment for retirement was 23 years; it is currently 30 and will most likely increase within the next five years. For me this has been the bulk of the carrot on the stick, and I'm always thinking about how/what I want to spend my working time after rotating out of municipal employment.

Customer service - Being a municipal employee means that [to a degree] everyone that pays taxes is your boss. You are expected to provide good customer service while working, whether it be on a project at the office, on the phone, or out in the field. There are times that you have to let somebody vent at you while attempting to convey what you know to be the best management practice for the situation. In private tree work there are always difficult customers, although there exist more creative solutions such as bidding high, referring, etc. There is definitely less control over situations when you work for The Man.

Career development - The program I currently work for is by far the most supportive I have ever been with in regards to receiving certs and training. ISA CA, Muni Specialist, TRAQ, ITCC, CTSP are only some of the outstanding development that I have been supported in pursuing, which has definitely not been a universal experience as far as municipal programs go. Make sure you ask ahead of time if/when interviewing about development opportunities.

All in all, municipal work can be great if you find the right program.

 

[neums]

Great thread! After 28 years of self employment I am having these thoughts that maybe a muni job would be a good way to segway into retirement. The only money I have socked away is in equity. I used to own some rental property with my ex but it got liquidated when we split. I took the bulk of that money and paid off all major debt.
Fast forward to me starting a family at the ripe age of 49 and 359 days- I worry about money a lot more now than I used to . I have thrown a few resumes out there just to see if there is any interest but I feel like municipalities don't wan't someone who has been in the private sector. Also for me one of the huge benefits of self employment has been my time. I can't imagine having to show up to the same place at the same time every day. With having small children also I can't imagine how you do all that comes along with that and still show to work.
Also I found that the salaries offered at these jobs as barely a living wage.

A lot of our hires come from the private sector, and we definitely value the skill set. If you ever apply, make sure to address the minimum and preferred qualifications on your resume and application. I often tweak my resume to match exact skills, i.e. GIS or familiarity and application of ANSI standards. Don't feel discouraged!

 

[JD3000]

I was burnt out in the private sector for a multitude of reasons but long hours and awful people sums it up nicely.

Salary in Muni is pretty good but the benefits are outstanding. Plenty of time off, insurance, retirement, boots and clothes, etc are fantastic.

I'm also back to doing a ton of planting and I try to take the native/ecological/environmental approach which I love.

Definitely some downside though. Useless city employees and bureaucratic red tape are a daily grind but you learn to work around it. It would be great to have more skilled labor but we're just now building the program so that will take time. For example, two of us are pruning 400 street trees for clearance and some structure and my best helpers for clearing debris are two of my seasonal college kids on Christmas break. It's not worth the headache to bring out most of the full time guys for this task as they're more often than not, tits on a boar hog...

And don't get me started on POs and City Hall...

 

[JD3000]

I think that’s a very individual question. I had the opportunity to take the city arborist position where I live 20 years ago. I was 2 years into my own business. I had borrowed significant money for equipment and would’ve been upside down had I tried to liquidate. If that opportunity would’ve come a few years earlier I would’ve take it for sure.

A good friend of mine went to work for the same city when he was 18. The conditions for his retirement are very different today than they were when he was hired. I can’t exactly remember all the specifics, but the term he has to work was increased by nearly 10 years and the formula to determine his pension was altered to lower his payout. I also think he explained that he no longer gets free healthcare in retirement, but can’t remember the specifics?

I think the general consensus is that if you work for government you get a pension and lifetime health care. We are currently in the largest period of economic prosperity ever to occur in the United States. Yet here is the condition of public employee pension Funds on a state by state basis:

How Well-Funded are Pension Plans in Your State?

More than half of states have pension plans that are less than two-thirds funded, and five states have pension plans that are less than 50 percent funded.

taxfoundation.org

I also think the timing of where you're at in your career plays a major factor. In Ohio to get full retirement from OPERS I believe you need to work for government for 30 years (Non law enforcement). I also think you sacrifice your previous contributions to social security. If you enter public employment after about 35 it seems questionable to me?

I would be skeptical of a public pension based on the data available? I can’t see the goal posts not having to be moved further away in many states...

We have had our own financial planner for sometime now and consider my OPERS as a supplement.

 

[JD3000]

Work is a moral and ethical good. I can be happy scrubbing toilets but much happier serving trees.
Too many widows out there cause of early retirement.
i don't think about retiring, I think about how can I keep taking care of trees and lately more about planting, seed collection and propogation the latter two being my roots and climbing and touching trees being my childhood. Thanks for starting the thread @macrocarpa just what i needed today

I've gotten back into growing and started a little city nursery from seeds and small bare roots. Super fun to see the babies grow

 

[macrocarpa]

I was burnt out in the private sector for a multitude of reasons but long hours and awful people sums it up nicely.

Salary in Muni is pretty good but the benefits are outstanding. Plenty of time off, insurance, retirement, boots and clothes, etc are fantastic.

I'm also back to doing a ton of planting and I try to take the native/ecological/environmental approach which I love.

Definitely some downside though. Useless city employees and bureaucratic red tape are a daily grind but you learn to work around it. It would be great to have more skilled labor but we're just now building the program so that will take time. For example, two of us are pruning 400 street trees for clearance and some structure and my best helpers for clearing debris are two of my seasonal college kids on Christmas break. It's not worth the headache to bring out most of the full time guys for this task as they're more often than not, tits on a boar hog...

And don't get me started on POs and City Hall...

Good to hear you are in a growing program and getting into rewarding projects! Revisiting old plantings is the best.

 

[treecareinc]

We have had our own financial planner for sometime now and consider my OPERS as a supplement.

I think you just hit on the most important point. No matter which route you choose having a plan and following it is crucial. Both choices have and will continue to have very successful and somewhat poor long term outcomes. Neither is a sure fire road to success. Can’t stress enough the importance of a qualified financial planner!

My guess is that a well planned municipal career generally has less chance for financial failure than self employment. I also think that self employment has the opportunity for much greater financial success. As far as a feeling of fulfillment that has to be a very personal question. That question being best answered by the individual.

I also know a few people that have had high levels of financial success working at Davey and Bartlett. Some people are very fulfilled by this career path as well...

 

[Reliable tree man]

Thanks for starting this thread @macrocarpa. This is a conundrum I have been wrestling with for a while now. I am currently employed municipally and have been, full time, for nearly 10 years. I started private, full time, in 2004. I worked for Davey and some smaller companies before going municipal. I didn't plan on going municipal but had the job offered to me when I was being worked into the ground so I took it. I saw no future at the company that was trying to squeeze every drop of work out of me and the work/life balance of City work combined with the vacation/pension/benefits were enough for me to make the switch. Also, the municipality I work for is very advanced as far as forestry goes so there are lots of toys to get the jobs done right and decent opportunities for training and education.

There are many drawbacks to city work, however. If you are a highly driven person who wants to be compensated proportionally to your efforts and productivity then working municipal can be very stifling. There is no direct incentive to perform because everyone with the same job title gets paid the same regardless of productivity or competence. The result is a race to the bottom with regard to productivity. The only incentives to perform are your own work ethic and the possibility of a promotion down the road. Another problem is that often, people are not promoted based on merit but on seniority, so the promotion thing is not guaranteed.

One nice thing is that you can do tree work on the side for extra money and a sense of job satisfaction. That is what I do. The problem I run into is that I've got no free time left. All my time is spent working. With a wife and 2 small kids at home, having no free time is not good.

I think the primary question is: What will allow you to maximize your potential? This is not an easy question to answer and the answer varies from person to person. Things are further complicated by one's obligations - mortgage, family, payments etc...

Another consideration is the risk associated with running a tree care business. There is risk of injury to yourself or employees, possible property damage. There is a lot that can go wrong that can sink your business. Doing municipal work still has the risk of injury but it is generally easier on the body so the likelihood is lower and the consequences can mean an office job whereas the consequences when on your own can be much greater. You also need to be a business person not just an arborist - this is where a lot of tree guys screw up. There is a big difference in being a good arborist and being a good business person. Being a business owner is not for everyone.

I think a lot of what this comes down to is the personality and aptitudes of the person making the decision. There is much success to be had if you choose either route but it depends on how you approach it. It also depends on how much of your life you want to revolve around work, what your other interests are and how important they are to you.

Going municipal can be a bit of a trap too. Once you get ten years in a pension plan and you have built a life with this type of employment factored in, it can be very difficult to leave it behind for the unknowns of running a business full time.

 

[southsoundtree]

Remember, you can have friendly relationships with customers but they aren't friends. You still need to charge appropriately, even if you like the person, and they are in a bind or whatever. When you take money out of your pocket to give someone a deal, they won't be taking money out of their pocket when they call and you say you're injured and can't work at the moment.

If the company is clearing 20% profit, all discounts come out of this 20%, and will quickly eat up any gains, and there is opportunity cost.

And people want to use a CC so they can get "free" airline miles for their tropical vacation. 3% out of that 20% gone in an instant. I take checks. They can pay their own CC fees with a surcharge, allowed in WA State, if stated up front.

Municipally, you get paid the same, regardless how the 'estimate' of time/ cost works out. If the job takes twice as long, you get paid the same. If Joe feeds a t-post into the chipper, it's not your chipper or lost productivity.

 

[macrocarpa]

Thanks for starting this thread @macrocarpa. This is a conundrum I have been wrestling with for a while now. I am currently employed municipally and have been, full time, for nearly 10 years. I started private, full time, in 2004. I worked for Davey and some smaller companies before going municipal. I didn't plan on going municipal but had the job offered to me when I was being worked into the ground so I took it. I saw no future at the company that was trying to squeeze every drop of work out of me and the work/life balance of City work combined with the vacation/pension/benefits were enough for me to make the switch. Also, the municipality I work for is very advanced as far as forestry goes so there are lots of toys to get the jobs done right and decent opportunities for training and education.

There are many drawbacks to city work, however. If you are a highly driven person who wants to be compensated proportionally to your efforts and productivity then working municipal can be very stifling. There is no direct incentive to perform because everyone with the same job title gets paid the same regardless of productivity or competence. The result is a race to the bottom with regard to productivity. The only incentives to perform are your own work ethic and the possibility of a promotion down the road. Another problem is that often, people are not promoted based on merit but on seniority, so the promotion thing is not guaranteed.

One nice thing is that you can do tree work on the side for extra money and a sense of job satisfaction. That is what I do. The problem I run into is that I've got no free time left. All my time is spent working. With a wife and 2 small kids at home, having no free time is not good.

I think the primary question is: What will allow you to maximize your potential? This is not an easy question to answer and the answer varies from person to person. Things are further complicated by one's obligations - mortgage, family, payments etc...

Another consideration is the risk associated with running a tree care business. There is risk of injury to yourself or employees, possible property damage. There is a lot that can go wrong that can sink your business. Doing municipal work still has the risk of injury but it is generally easier on the body so the likelihood is lower and the consequences can mean an office job whereas the consequences when on your own can be much greater. You also need to be a business person not just an arborist - this is where a lot of tree guys screw up. There is a big difference in being a good arborist and being a good business person. Being a business owner is not for everyone.

I think a lot of what this comes down to is the personality and aptitudes of the person making the decision. There is much success to be had if you choose either route but it depends on how you approach it. It also depends on how much of your life you want to revolve around work, what your other interests are and how important they are to you.

Going municipal can be a bit of a trap too. Once you get ten years in a pension plan and you have built a life with this type of employment factored in, it can be very difficult to leave it behind for the unknowns of running a business full time.

Its nice to see so many arborists have put so much thought into this. All in all I think municipal programs vary so much depending on upper management, how the program is structured under parks and rec (preferred) vs under streets department, co-workers that actually like trees vs clock milkers that have no interest etc etc....Finding a good program is a big career score!

Running the tree business is nice because its all up to yourself and you don't have to hope for others to give opportunity. But its also not as stable. 2019 was a slightly down year for me regardless of having what I think is 100% client satisfaction. I have noticed several small arborist companies and the stump grinding company I referred went out of business in 2019 in my area (and the kayak shop where I was selling my handmade paddles). I have focused on tree preservation and refer other local companies who own their own crane for big removals which I know has some limitations. Preservation work seems to allow for a longer career as hands on in the field perhaps? (pruning, PHC, consulting) My passion is in playing a part in creating healthy, beautiful urban forests and making a living in the process. Hopefully arborists become more involved in the development/construction process from the start rather than us getting called to "fix" mistakes when its usually too late. Seems there should be more income opportunity in this area.

 

[Serf Life]

I think the primary question is: What will allow you to maximize your potential?

A trust fund that kick in after years of toiling?

 

[Reliable tree man]

Its nice to see so many arborists have put so much thought into this. All in all I think municipal programs vary so much depending on upper management, how the program is structured under parks and rec (preferred) vs under streets department, co-workers that actually like trees vs clock milkers that have no interest etc etc....Finding a good program is a big career score!

Running the tree business is nice because its all up to yourself and you don't have to hope for others to give opportunity. But its also not as stable. 2019 was a slightly down year for me regardless of having what I think is 100% client satisfaction. I have noticed several small arborist companies and the stump grinding company I referred went out of business in 2019 in my area (and the kayak shop where I was selling my handmade paddles). I have focused on tree preservation and refer other local companies who own their own crane for big removals which I know has some limitations. Preservation work seems to allow for a longer career as hands on in the field perhaps? (pruning, PHC, consulting) My passion is in playing a part in creating healthy, beautiful urban forests and making a living in the process. Hopefully arborists become more involved in the development/construction process from the start rather than us getting called to "fix" mistakes when its usually too late. Seems there should be more income opportunity in this area.

Another big consideration is the market in which you plan to start your business. There are huge differences in income potential depending on where you are. Big cities tend to have higher end property with more disposable income and a way higher volume of clients.