more fun with knucklebooms

CanaryBoss said:
Here’s my chart. That’s without my manual job extension I think
Click to expand...

Hey bud, I am running a 280 on a PM 100, unfortunately I did not buy it from BIK, and have little help to pretty much GFY with their group, been super polite but I guess competition amongst all is, just that... competition.

Anyways, I was real curious on a couple pics of yours...

1st, if you could get PNs off your front stab stabilizers, I am still to mount those in the first week of June while the truck is down for a week for the saw install. With a rear deck have not had any lifting issues... still want to put them on.

Secondly is there any way you can get more pics of either side of your hydro routing. I do not have the calapsable caging in which appears toward your cab. Do you have reels on the main boom and that caging extra?

I apologize for the questions, just another k boom guy out here in CO. When this all started I learned quickly oalfleet would not touch it being manitex, and BIK didn’t either considering they did not sell the crane and another party did.... it’s 1500 miles to Westminister hydro, and a grip of time. We are going to see what the local company can do. They build these trucks all the time, but more for forms. Will be the first grapple saw setup...
 
CanaryBoss said:
The tech they sent me(who was an awesome guy), showed me a trick with letting the air out of my suspension after putting my outriggers out but not down. It allowed me the extra lift I was needing. Turns out, my issue was just lack of ground pressure. He wasn’t with me at 9 o’clock at night when I was doing my emergency job.

Headed out now to do my first scheduled paid jobs today. I’ll try to get some video
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Yes, from what I have seen sometimes dumping the suspension can help you out the side stability, but sometimes can hurt you out the back (depending on the setup). I would assume with your's being a cab mount it wouldn't effect you out the back.

Remember on a knuckleboom setup, the outriggers coming off the ground will happen especially when working out the side. As long as you have a braking tire on the ground you are considered stable. Usually to be on the safe said I say if any tire comes off the ground at all I stop.

There is a middle point when setting up outriggers for your ground pressure. To much or not enough = unstable setup, you have to find that happy middle.
 
Nossliw said:
Hey bud, I am running a 280 on a PM 100, unfortunately I did not buy it from BIK, and have little help to pretty much GFY with their group, been super polite but I guess competition amongst all is, just that... competition.

Anyways, I was real curious on a couple pics of yours...

1st, if you could get PNs off your front stab stabilizers, I am still to mount those in the first week of June while the truck is down for a week for the saw install. With a rear deck have not had any lifting issues... still want to put them on.

Secondly is there any way you can get more pics of either side of your hydro routing. I do not have the calapsable caging in which appears toward your cab. Do you have reels on the main boom and that caging extra?

I apologize for the questions, just another k boom guy out here in CO. When this all started I learned quickly oalfleet would not touch it being manitex, and BIK didn’t either considering they did not sell the crane and another party did.... it’s 1500 miles to Westminister hydro, and a grip of time. We are going to see what the local company can do. They build these trucks all the time, but more for forms. Will be the first grapple saw setup...
Click to expand...

On the hydraulic hose routing it appears they are running 3/8" hose through a track system on the secondary boom (some call it the main boom). Once connected to the jib they are using a hose reel for the tip connections.

Who is doing the work for you if you don't mind me asking?

I always try to inform people that unfortunately most of the time it isn't just as simple as running some hoses and connecting the grapple saw. Depending on how your crane is setup now will dictate how much modifications will need to be done to make the grapple saw run correctly. Keep in mind that Mecanil recommends at least 1/2" hoses to help with back pressure and heat.

Below is a link to a Parker page that explains somethings about selecting hose size per your GPM requirements.

http://blog.parker.com/three-key-words-in-hydraulic-hose-sizing-id-dash-size-and-nomogram
 
I'm curious in what scenario does dumping the air suspension hurt you. I was told in no uncertain terms to never operate the truck without dumping the air. The few times I have forgotten I can immediately feel it even just unfolding the boom.
 
JT31 said:
On the hydraulic hose routing it appears they are running 3/8" hose through a track system on the secondary boom (some call it the main boom). Once connected to the jib they are using a hose reel for the tip connections.

Who is doing the work for you if you don't mind me asking?

I always try to inform people that unfortunately most of the time it isn't just as simple as running some hoses and connecting the grapple saw. Depending on how your crane is setup now will dictate how much modifications will need to be done to make the grapple saw run correctly. Keep in mind that Mecanil recommends at least 1/2" hoses to help with back pressure and heat.

Below is a link to a Parker page that explains somethings about selecting hose size per your GPM requirements.

http://blog.parker.com/three-key-words-in-hydraulic-hose-sizing-id-dash-size-and-nomogram
Click to expand...

I have a 14 PM 100 with reels on the main and Jib. I have seen these setup two different ways. There is a fellow named Wes running a 100 on the east coast that is setup near identical to mine, no additional reels or folding stack, runs a 280.

Canary has a folding stack I have not seen before and was curious why it was set up different than the other truck. Both built by BIK.

I think mine is the only one that was not built by BIK.

AdvancedEquipment is the shop. They build k booms from the ground up and have done so for a couple decades. Typically with 70t/m or smaller units by ferrrari or fassi. They are for forms and concrete. This is the first time they were asked by some idiot (me) to put a mecanil on it.

I am simply trying to get some support on what is all needed. I’ll be honest, if you do not buy a unit from a specific dealer they could give two chits about helping you, or selling parts. It’s been a couple months and we couldn’t even get a PN or order in for a set of front stabs for the truck from certain vendors.

I do not think it’s as easy as running some hose, electrical, couple valves and integrating a remote, but we also do not think it’s rocket science either.

We may be one of the few tree companies out there that didn’t buy it outright ready to go, or pay for one of the big three to furnish a turnkey rig, but we are doing our best to build one the way we want and learn as we go. Trying to get info along the way and learning that the industry is not as supportive as I thought.

And hey I’ll be very frank, never have I been rude by any means to the big three builders, I just didn’t realize how much the “secret is kept” and there is zero support unles you buy from them. On the flip side the local show has been great to deal with, and as much as they didn’t want to go down the grapple saw path with me, they are going to give it a go.

I have seen a few others voice this as well, some that have been running a hooked k boom for over a decade and a half without a grapple saw... simply trying to put one on their current unit, brand new or a bit older...

Lastly I will say Todd at KBoomtrader was a great guy to us and has helped point in the right direction with any questions. He has been a good person!

I want to thank you all as well with the help and pics for simple things like deck configs and grapple mounts.
 
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The track is necessary because it’s not just fluid. You need as close to 12 volts as you can get to the diverter. Mine had to be hard wired because the quick connect plugs were reducing voltage to close to 8v. It was making it stick and double function. The huge concern is say you are telescoping in but your diverter says open grapple because it is not functioning properly. Kaboom! Not good
 
CanaryBoss said:
The track is necessary because it’s not just fluid. You need as close to 12 volts as you can get to the diverter. Mine had to be hard wired because the quick connect plugs were reducing voltage to close to 8v. It was making it stick and double function. The huge concern is say you are telescoping in but your diverter says open grapple because it is not functioning properly. Kaboom! Not good
Click to expand...

Good to know. I have heard that before as well and sometimes do not fully understand why not upside your signal? Do you have spools on the jib and main as well as the track? Or just jib spools?

I guess from a basic resistance a line drop calculation, why is it wrong to run a heavy gauge wire on your spools? I might ask Wes what he has for a power boost,

Yes I completely agree on the kaboom part!
 
I'm drooling over these kboom threads. My 3 to 5 year plan includes either a stick or kboom. The kboom looks so much more versatile. No tree company near me has a kboom. I live in a very hilly area. More often than not when we setup a stick boom we are lifting the wheels off the ground to level it. I understand that kbooms require wheels to be on the ground. What is the maximum grade you can operate on?
 
Nossliw said:
I have a 14 PM 100 with reels on the main and Jib. I have seen these setup two different ways. There is a fellow named Wes running a 100 on the east coast that is setup near identical to mine, no additional reels or folding stack, runs a 280.

Canary has a folding stack I have not seen before and was curious why it was set up different than the other truck. Both built by BIK.

I think mine is the only one that was not built by BIK.

AdvancedEquipment is the shop. They build k booms from the ground up and have done so for a couple decades. Typically with 70t/m or smaller units by ferrrari or fassi. They are for forms and concrete. This is the first time they were asked by some idiot (me) to put a mecanil on it.

I am simply trying to get some support on what is all needed. I’ll be honest, if you do not buy a unit from a specific dealer they could give two chits about helping you, or selling parts. It’s been a couple months and we couldn’t even get a PN or order in for a set of front stabs for the truck from certain vendors.

I do not think it’s as easy as running some hose, electrical, couple valves and integrating a remote, but we also do not think it’s rocket science either.

We may be one of the few tree companies out there that didn’t buy it outright ready to go, or pay for one of the big three to furnish a turnkey rig, but we are doing our best to build one the way we want and learn as we go. Trying to get info along the way and learning that the industry is not as supportive as I thought.

And hey I’ll be very frank, never have I been rude by any means to the big three builders, I just didn’t realize how much the “secret is kept” and there is zero support unles you buy from them. On the flip side the local show has been great to deal with, and as much as they didn’t want to go down the grapple saw path with me, they are going to give it a go.

I have seen a few others voice this as well, some that have been running a hooked k boom for over a decade and a half without a grapple saw... simply trying to put one on their current unit, brand new or a bit older...

Lastly I will say Todd at KBoomtrader was a great guy to us and has helped point in the right direction with any questions. He has been a good person!

I want to thank you all as well with the help and pics for simple things like deck configs and grapple mounts.
Click to expand...
I know who Advanced Equipment is, good people. And yes you are correct, there are several dealers out there that wont help if you didn't buy it from them. Never understood this concept, as I always try to help everyone if possible.

I assume when you refer to folding stacks you are talking about the track system on the side of the secondary boom? In general there is a few ways of providing hydraulics to the grapple. What I have seen from PM and Palfinger they are either running a track system or hose reel system to provide electric and hydraulic's to the jib. On 65tm and above (possibly the smaller cranes as well) they are using 2 electronically activated diverter valves. In the programming of PM's Power Tronics and Palfinger's Pal Tronics (engineer that help create their computer systems worked for both companies) you can setup what they call Multiple Activation. With this when you pull paddles for rotator and grapple, it will take a jib function and divert it to whatever function you are requesting. So depending on hose your crane is currently setup this could be a very easy conversion. If not on the crane already you will need 2 hose reels on the jib, one for the rotator and one for the grapple. And if you do it the way PM would from factory then you will need 2 diverter valves. I am not sure if Advanced Equipment has the cables and software for PM's Power Tronics but you will need someone that has that to do the programming setup. Not a big fan of this system, but as a plus it keeps hose reels and track system small as possible.

Regardless of size of crane Copma runs a 5/8" hose for the grapple (only way to provide required GPM). Also they are running an true physical control valve block section for each function. It will provide the best running grapple saw as well as keep the heat and back pressure to lower. The only down side is more hose reel and bigger track system.
 
Steve Connally said:
I'm curious in what scenario does dumping the air suspension hurt you. I was told in no uncertain terms to never operate the truck without dumping the air. The few times I have forgotten I can immediately feel it even just unfolding the boom.
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I saw it on a Precast setup. If the air bags were dumped out the side stability got much better. But due to the build setup out the back got worse. This was a rear mount 100tm k-boom. I know of several companies that never dump their air unless they have to due to a certain scenario.

As for a Stick crane it is hard to compare. You are lifting the chassis off the ground, k-boom the tires on the ground is part of your stability.
 
I might be off in this thinking, but if your crane was capacity tested by builder with air-dumped, then you need to dump otherwise your chart is off cause of instability.

Adhering and being under your chart's max is the rule, so I wouldn't want to risk operating without dumping if that is how your crane was load tested.

However, let's say you didn't dump, and you cut back capacity (by a significant margin 30% or more?) I can't think of what harm might be caused to components of truck or stabilizers? Would they be stressed more, yes, but would you be so unstable not to be able to operate under significantly reduced capacity? Obviously, you'd need to stay within 5-degrees level no matter.

I don't have to dump for my knuckle, so I am interested in how others are setup. If a builder told me something I'd abide by it, I'm just wondering about the mechanics involved?
 
So what's the max. incline for a set-up? I'm not sure. I'm thinking it might be about 10-degress?
For me it is hard to translate angle inclines into exact degress. I just eyeball it.

With more setups you learn what you can do. Just sucks to show up and have a problem getting where you need to be.

That means either driving front or rear axles up on ramped blocks and probably a good amount of blocking up under the stabilizers at the higher end.

When operating keep visually checking the wheel position on the blocks. Things can slip with vibration and your blocking should be at least a couple inches wider than the tires. That way you can see if your moving before its too late.
 
TreeGuru4u said:
So what's the max. incline for a set-up? I'm not sure. I'm thinking it might be about 10-degress?
For me it is hard to translate angle inclines into exact degress. I just eyeball it.

With more setups you learn what you can do. Just sucks to show up and have a problem getting where you need to be.

That means either driving front or rear axles up on ramped blocks and probably a good amount of blocking up under the stabilizers at the higher end.

When operating keep visually checking the wheel position on the blocks. Things can slip with vibration and your blocking should be at least a couple inches wider than the tires. That way you can see if your moving before its too late.
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That’s basically what I do but with the air dumped. Lol
 
Steve Connally said:
I'm curious in what scenario does dumping the air suspension hurt you. I was told in no uncertain terms to never operate the truck without dumping the air. The few times I have forgotten I can immediately feel it even just unfolding the boom.
Click to expand...
if you dont dump the air, the ride height valves continue to pressurize the bags and they are basically trying to lift the crane off the jacks, rather than with the air dumped, the tare weight of the suspensions and axles helps your stability. when stability tests are performed on the completed crane, the air is dumped, so operationally, you need to duplicate those conditions.
 
dbl612 said:
if you dont dump the air, the ride height valves continue to pressurize the bags and they are basically trying to lift the crane off the jacks, rather than with the air dumped, the tare weight of the suspensions and axles helps your stability. when stability tests are performed on the completed crane, the air is dumped, so operationally, you need to duplicate those conditions.
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Well said sir
 
Hey Casey, that looks like a video worthy project. Seems amazing to me you’d have any capacity at all What’s the new Arbsession location look like?
 
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