mapping movement within a tree

[Brando CalPankian]

I'm a fan of multiple setups myself. Access with tall central tip srs. Short lanyard, long lanyard, and a 50' ddrt lanyard. Break the tree into halves or quadrants normally, and try to work each section top down (pruning). When I was in Texas and Georgia the live oaks were so sprawly it took a totally different thought process to prune. Srs was great because I could tie in on one side and keep recrotching my way across the whole tree, with propper planning. If a leader is stripped out real bad I try to throw the 50' line out, or choke and grope my way out (choke off the "spar" alternating each lanyard and walking out/up as much as possible). Most of the time slings are too short, or I don't return to clean them up and have to make a second climb to save them. A short throwline in the tree was always handy, especially for tail tying a closed system or m-rig configs to get better lateral movement. Each tree was different though, as is the scope of each job. Quartiles and vertical movement was my go to for climb planning though, especially on days where you're jumping conifers. Growing up in the pnw, that must be where I got the habit.

 

[dspacio]

I'm a fan of multiple setups myself. Access with tall central tip srs. Short lanyard, long lanyard, and a 50' ddrt lanyard. Break the tree into halves or quadrants normally, and try to work each section top down (pruning).

Thanks for the thoughts. What you are describing sounds exactly like what I am leaning towards. I use a double-end lanyard 27' to do a lot of that swapping, to reach difficult distant portions. I have been considering whether it's worthwhile to add a mid-length ddrt line as a standard operation.

My most recent climb convinced me this is worth the effort. I just had a few cuts to make, removing a long high reaching oak limb and a few others. my srt TIP was high, but out to the side, I considered setting up another line to balance the vector, but neglected to, as I was setting up rigging and didn't want it too complicated. Once I got out toward the tip, I could not get well positioned no matter what, was using slings to stand on, etc, and feel that I surely passed more time futzing around out there than I would have just taking a few minutes to set another line.

I am going to trade a 70' velocity I use for a 54' hank I got for my son to climb with. I am feeling this should be just enough to use as a 2nd line within the tree.
I appreciate your description. It's interesting that many of us will reach similar ideas and approaches. It is helpful to me, confirms I am on a sensible track.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I climb with a longer and shorter lanyard as well, one is wire core the other is rope.

Usually what I'll use the second lanyard for is as a second tie in when repositioning a main or secondary line if I'm not tied into a climb line at all and only tied in with a lanyard. With the lower D's on my new Sequoia I can use one as a mini climb line so to speak while I reset the climb line. I've done this for spar work as well. Allows me to be tied in twice while I reposition the climb lines.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

I climb with a longer and shorter lanyard as well, one is wire core the other is rope.

Usually what I'll use the second lanyard for is as a second tie in when repositioning a main or secondary line if I'm not tied into a climb line at all and only tied in with a lanyard. With the lower D's on my new Sequoia I can use one as a mini climb line so to speak while I reset the climb line. I've done this for spar work as well. Allows me to be tied in twice while I reposition the climb lines.

Especially great for removals!

 

[dspacio]

Having a double ended lanyard; a lot of small trees or straightforward conifers I climb with that alone. I can just hopscotch around, skipping branches, and when I want to, allow up to 12' of play on the "MRS end" of the line. 27' of 1/2" XTC I am pretty in love with.

 

[Lupin_IV]

Thanks for the thoughts. What you are describing sounds exactly like what I am leaning towards. I use a double-end lanyard 27' to do a lot of that swapping, to reach difficult distant portions. I have been considering whether it's worthwhile to add a mid-length ddrt line as a standard operation.

My most recent climb convinced me this is worth the effort. I just had a few cuts to make, removing a long high reaching oak limb and a few others. my srt TIP was high, but out to the side, I considered setting up another line to balance the vector, but neglected to, as I was setting up rigging and didn't want it too complicated. Once I got out toward the tip, I could not get well positioned no matter what, was using slings to stand on, etc, and feel that I surely passed more time futzing around out there than I would have just taking a few minutes to set another line.

I am going to trade a 70' velocity I use for a 54' hank I got for my son to climb with. I am feeling this should be just enough to use as a 2nd line within the tree.
I appreciate your description. It's interesting that many of us will reach similar ideas and approaches. It is helpful to me, confirms I am on a sensible track.

The specs of your system are almost exactly the same as mine haha. Main line SRT, 36’ DEDA lanyard one side with a HC pulley. If it gets more complex add a 72’ MRS system tied to the tail of the main line for secret weapon redirects or use as a system. One step further use a 110’ line with a HH. Easy srs or mrs anywhere. The tree becomes your oyster.

This setup seems to have eliminated a lot of my preclimb overthinking as far as mapping the tree and saving time without sacrificing safety. I can just set my ideal tie in point and try to make it work for as much of the tree as possible, setting new lines if needed.

 

[dspacio]

This setup seems to have eliminated a lot of my preclimb overthinking as far as mapping the tree and saving time without sacrificing safety. I can just set my ideal tie in point and try to make it work for as much of the tree as possible, setting new lines if needed.

Awesome! much to be said for reducing preclimb overthinking. Lately I have been in a lot of trees that are either way dense (hard to set clear paths), or the tops are sparse and not giving super robust tie-ins. I have been tending toward getting an acceptable TIP, (not fighting for the perfect one) going up, and figuring things out more clearly in the canopy. The trick to this is thinking ahead to have what I will need up there. getting some of these systems into habit is my process now.

 

[Acerxharlowii]

I can't help you with a plan, but consider the use of either a secret weapon (DdRT off an SRT access line) or triple threat (3 SRT work positioning lines distributed from a single TIP). On the other hand, I don't hear much about them in social media lately so maybe they've fallen out of favor.

They no longer make the triple threat. I made my own with the petzl ring that opens up and various spliced ropes.

 

[Tuebor]

They no longer make the triple threat. I made my own with the petzl ring that opens up and various spliced ropes.

Right. Guys figured that out right away. Or they just tie an AB at the top and drop another line from that.

 

[oceans]

Approaching a full prune on mature canopy trees, in our area generally Oaks, Ash, Maple, Linden, Cherry, Beech, etc.

I am developing patterns for how to work each section in efficient ways. The concept of: ddrt works horizontally, srt vertically, gave me some ideas. Going up, securing my TIP if needed, then setting outward redirects to drop down into an area, returning up, then back down again a few times to reach each section. Or working one side on the way up, the other on the way down. Of course every tree is unique, I am just seeking considerations that help map and pattern the tree.

I am generally base tying an SRT system, then using a rope sling (ring and carbiner on either ends eye) to bring the rope to the extended tie-in, so I don't need to fully unclip or squeeze through the union. In smaller trees lately I have been liking to set a friction saver and use ddrt when the tree is more wide than tall. Then I go for a toss outward with the lanyard and haul myself out to work a branch section.

I am sure this conversation has been had before here, I would gladly read the archives, if you recall any. my search didn't find that conversation.

My questions: how do you approach or map the tree when doing a complete prune?
Are there patterns you look for to help choose paths?
All thoughts and insights appreciated. It's such a dynamic thing.

If I can, and if the goals call for it, I will try to approach a large prune on an SRS System and try to zing my throwline through a few redirects before it goes up and over the main TIP. This way I can work much of one side on my way up. Then I’ll reorient my main TIP before working out and down the other side.

If the crown is super complex, when I reach my TIP for the first time, I’ll pull up another line, bend it into the anchor side of one I’m working on, and throw it down through some work stations. This keeps its weight from influencing your main line. Then you can work out and down on your first line, and simply go up the other. It saves a lot of time in a complex crown.

 

[dspacio]

If I can, and if the goals call for it, I will try to approach a large prune on an SRS System and try to zing my throwline through a few redirects before it goes up and over the main TIP. This way I can work much of one side on my way up. Then I’ll reorient my main TIP before working out and down the other side.

If the crown is super complex, when I reach my TIP for the first time, I’ll pull up another line, bend it into the anchor side of one I’m working on, and throw it down through some work stations. This keeps its weight from influencing your main line. Then you can work out and down on your first line, and simply go up the other. It saves a lot of time in a complex crown.

Thanks, those are great ideas. how to get the most out of each rope position. i haven't applied predirect with srs much. will be keeping that in mind from reading this thread.

do you have a midline bend you use? I am not sure a sheet bend would reliably stay put.

 

[oceans]

Thanks, those are great ideas. how to get the most out of each rope position. i haven't applied predirect with srs much. will be keeping that in mind from reading this thread.

do you have a midline bend you use? I am not sure a sheet bend would reliably stay put.

Farmer’s Loop on the Anchor Line and Double Sheet into that. I’ve seen other methods that mimic a bowline, but I just go with the previous stated. End to end would be a Zepplin Bend, all the way.

 

[oceans]

For a while I was running an anchor line with an eye splice into a Delta Link or HMS style Carabiner. From there I could join in other Eye Splices, and best to keep the link on the Anchor Side, below the main TIP. That’s the cleanest and quickest way.

I was carrying a static line with a sewn eye, and at least two 24 strand lines with splices. That’s really an easy way to advance your main TIP without having to climb to it. It also allows you to run 2 systems in the tree for some pretty fun positioning options in wide open canopies.

 

[Mallett]

I primarily do pruning / trimming work more than removal and climb ddrt.

Typically what I do is start by setting a nice high TIP that gives me good positioning to reach other necessary areas of the tree and then work off that.

I’m fine climbing up another leader and having my line be horizontal or not directly above me, etc.

However, over the last year what I have started experimenting with, and I’ve mentiond this before on here, is adding a second ddrt line for improved work position if I think it’s warranted for what I have to do. I even do this with removals sometimes.

So I’ll work off the main TIP and use the second ddrt line for better work position in certain situations like a tree with multiple leaders, etc. Sometimes I’ll stay tied in to both, or hop off the main TIP and just be tied into the second.

My current systems are the Petzl ZigZag on my main and hitch climber on second.

I am interested in maybe getting the Unicender and instead of having two ddrt lines maybe trying a ddrt and srt in scenarios where I think two lines would be beneficial.

So that’s sort of how I plan it. And sometimes I’ll just use one line. Every situation is different.

Another thing I could add is while every tree is different, I think you can identify patterns in how you do things in certain types of trees (example: widespread with multiple leaders, single stem, etc.) as far as mapping out your climbing setup / how you’re going to move from Point A to Point B and then to Point C and sort of have a basic game plan for how you are going to tackle a certain type of tree structure and then just tailor it to each individual tree.

View attachment 75101


And yes, I know for those of you using SRT you may just use redirects instead of a second climb line.

This[emoji115][emoji115]
& if you are climbing srt you can do kind of the same thing, but you’ll get 2 climb lines out of 1 extra rope. Setting the second rope on your initial TIP, you throw each leg wherever you plan on climbing, that way you have a total of 3 climb lines all around the tree. If you use a friction saver you can make the whole thing retrievable and pull all 3 lines out from the ground. I just learned this recently, I think my instructor called it spider legging. I’m still waiting to get a second rope haha


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[dspacio]

Farmer’s Loop on the Anchor Line and Double Sheet into that. I’ve seen other methods that mimic a bowline, but I just go with the previous stated. End to end would be a Zepplin Bend, all the way.

Thanks. I hadn't seen the farmers loop, i am used to the alpine butterfly. Good to hear that the doubled sheet is assessed okay for climbing. I will give it a test and watch it sometime safe.
I love the zeppelin bend, gotta keep practicing muscle memory on that one.

 

[dspacio]

For a while I was running an anchor line with an eye splice into a Delta Link or HMS style Carabiner. From there I could join in other Eye Splices, and best to keep the link on the Anchor Side, below the main TIP. That’s the cleanest and quickest way.

I was carrying a static line with a sewn eye, and at least two 24 strand lines with splices. That’s really an easy way to advance your main TIP without having to climb to it. It also allows you to run 2 systems in the tree for some pretty fun positioning options in wide open canopies.

This is great, I can see this working. simple set up for a lot of variability.
The other day climbing a big oak, I was running out of line (my longest is 120', it didn't reach earth after I advanced TIP. made final descent on another line) and it got me thinking of whether a slew of ropes 50-90' would be a better choice than getting a 150' rope.
What you are describing here is where my mind was going. Now I want to draw some stuff out to imagine some different scenarios. thanks~

 

[Stumpsprouts]

This is great, I can see this working. simple set up for a lot of variability.
The other day climbing a big oak, I was running out of line (my longest is 120', it didn't reach earth after I advanced TIP. made final descent on another line) and it got me thinking of whether a slew of ropes 50-90' would be a better choice than getting a 150' rope.
What you are describing here is where my mind was going. Now I want to draw some stuff out to imagine some different scenarios. thanks~

Oh, wow, I would come to the opposite conclusion given that scenario. That a longer line is needed. It just gives you so many options. I think at a certain point too many short systems within a tree are going to make the job more complicated and difficult.. I like the challenge of getting out on a far lead away from my TIP and then using my tail to return with the power of friction. Maybe the thought of all those systems just makes my little head hurt.

 

[dspacio]

Oh, wow, I would come to the opposite conclusion given that scenario. That a longer line is needed. It just gives you so many options. I think at a certain point too many short systems within a tree are going to make the job more complicated and difficult.. I like the challenge of getting out on a far lead away from my TIP and then using my tail to return with the power of friction. Maybe the thought of all those systems just makes my little head hurt.

yeah, it does get wacky!! And sure enough just now I had to hitch together the 120' with a 50' as I landed a "double TIP way up in a cherry. (40' of horizontal length)
really I needed about ~ 150', it's true. I guess as long as I trust the rope connections, with a number of different lengths, I could add them up to near any length I need.
I get tired of pulling yards and yards of tail around... so its a pick your poison kinda thing! there is only so much rope I can carry ...

 

[Stumpsprouts]

yeah, it does get wacky!! And sure enough just now I had to hitch together the 120' with a 50' as I landed a "double TIP way up in a cherry. (40' of horizontal length)
really I needed about ~ 150', it's true. I guess as long as I trust the rope connections, with a number of different lengths, I could add them up to near any length I need.
I get tired of pulling yards and yards of tail around... so its a pick your poison kinda thing! there is only so much rope I can carry ...

A 200’ rope can be installed with a short tail in mind. If it’s a basal or canopy, make sure you give yourself enough tail to get to the ground even if you redirect and come down elsewhere in the tree. Typically 10’ sometimes ‘25 if it’s a real sprawler.

For basal, you can tie something midline, like a running bowline on a bight, to the trunk. Or you can use a fancy cinching anchor and have a lowerable system.

If it’s a canopy tie, you might end up with a lot of tail on your retrieval end. If that bothers you, you can coil it up and stash it up at your TIP and release it at the end of the climb. I did just that today.

Rope doesn’t take up much space. My Tercel has often been loaded with a 250’ 150’ rig 200’ tag and 200’ 200’ 120’ climb rope, many a day I use all of them.

 

[dspacio]

it came to be that I was in a dense Linden, and then next climb a never-pruned large Beech.

was certainly drawing from some of the ideas gathered on here.

In the Linden, I could see the sections naturally. My ascent path, secure TIP, and move along. I set up a base tied access line and ran the Secret Weapon with a 53' velocity MRS off that. I was able to get the SW in an ideal false crotch position to work down one quadrant, yet before descending, get the tail over my next section. Then on the ground, retrieve the SW, and connect back to the tail in my next section. I use my foot and knee ascender to climb the access line, advance the SW, and flare out to the tips along the way.
It was a pretty great climb, plenty of good rope angles, easy limbwalk return, and no shortage of crossing and rubbing material to remove.

I find the Secret Weapon way easy to redirect. I guess that's it's beauty and when the tree is appropriate for it, truly shines.

Then it so happened that this big Beech worked pretty similar. I used a longer 74' MRS rope but I didn't even need that. I naturally sense to leave the SW set low enough to get down, even while the ultimate rope angle can be way higher, from my true TIP. Nothing like being ~30' out on a reaching beech limb with a high-angle MRS to lean into...

Definitely had my bell ringing in that Linden. it's all coming together.

I used to follow deer trails as a kid and got to be able to see them strongly even when it was the slightest signs. Seeing these pathways and positions reminds me of that.