Knut climbing hitch variation ( the TK hitch)

[Axman]

In the recent SCA news letter there was an article by Mark Adams on climbing hitches.

The Knut hitch was mentioned in the article, I've been playing with this hitch just to be trying something different other than the VT. In the article it was mentioned that Tod Kramer had a variation to this hitch using a half twist.

This half twist variation sounds interesting, I think I have it tied right but would like to be sure. I've been doing a search here through the threads to see if a picture has been posted, or if a thread was started on it.

So far I haven't been able to find anything on this hitch. So I guess the question is, is there a thread or picture of Tod's climbing hitch some where here in TreeBuzz.

Larry Weber

 

[tod_k]

I do not think a picture has ever been posted. I like this hitch because it is non rotational, loads more of the cord so the top two turns do not see most of the heat. Plus I think it reacts better than a VT meaning it is very consistant at any point of a climb. This hitch regrabs all the time. The VT's I have tried will somethime fail to grab up high in a larger tree when there is alot of rope belowe me. I also use it for my lanyard and adjustable friction savers.

 

[tod_k]

Loaded

 

[glens]

That's the third way I've seen it tied now (and that second picture, with the tree being the thing in focus in the background made my vision go whacky

The way (almost) I tie it is like in the image I've attached and which isn't mine. I use one less wrap up top. I use it on my lanyard and on my rope(s).

The third way is as shown at Kenny's site, and which I've never been able to get to work (sorry Ken, I'd meant to discuss it with you privately...).

Glen

 

[Bradley_Ford]

[ QUOTE ]
Originally posted by glens
The third way is as shown at Kenny's site, and which I've never been able to get to work

[/ QUOTE ]
I have gotten that hitch, as pictured there (and copied into my attachment), to work. However, it was difficult to set, and it jammed twice /forum/images/graemlins/icon9.gif while being used with a micropulley tender.

 

[glens]

That's the one.

I know what he did to form it (re-route one end of a Distel) but it doesn't grab the rope for me, at all.

By completely reversing the upper formation so the end which is captured in the bottom wrap comes from the top of the upper coils it's a wonderfully reliable device.

Glen

 

[Axman]

Thanks for posting the picture Tod.

The cord in the picture is that dyed orange 3/8 Stable Braid?? If it is I have some, I was using that about a year ago, that cord seemed to hold up the best of all the ones I have tried so far, been thinking of going back to it, especially after switching back to Blue Steak. The other cords I've tried just don't seem grab as good when you want them to on Blue Streak.

Maybe with this hitch and cord combo I'll get the performance I'm looking for.

Thanks again

Larry Weber

 

[Sawdust]

The hitch in that pic. from "ken's" site is not the knut. I will try the hitch you posted Todd. I would probably add a wrap unless it grabs better overall than the knut. I'm a die hard fan of the knut hitch. Best overall performance of any hitch on a wide range of rope and cord. Natural crotch or pulley too.

 

[Mahk_Adams]

The text in the SCA article is a little vague. It says only that, "...with the exception of a half twist..." the TK is the same as the Knut. 'Half twist' refers to how the bight is formed with the bottom leg of the split tail.

In the Knut, the bottom leg of the split tail forms a half hitch around the pendant, top leg of the split tail and the climbing line.

In the TK, the bottom leg of the split tail forms a marl around the pendant, top leg of the split tail and the climbing line.

The SCA article is a companion article to a longer one that appeared in the October issue of Arborist News magazine. That article, 'An Overview of Climbing Hitches', has the same plus additional photographs, a different text, and, among other things, describes how to form each of the knots that are discussed, including the Knut. But, it's a pretty long article so there was not room to include the TK.

The Knut that is shown in those two articles may look a little different from what Glen posted, but they were (originally) tied exactly the same. I tied and posted the one that appears in Glen's attachment. I also tied all of the knots that appear in the two articles. But, I am left handed and the editor thought it would be confusing to show knots that were tied left handed. All of the images were reversed and the text was changed to describe tying the knot for a right handed person (you righties are so lame). If you compare the photo in Glen's attachment to the photos of the Knut in either of those articles they don't look exactly the same. The only difference, however, is that the former is left handed and the latter are right handed.

The AN article will be posted on this site some time in the (hopefully not too distant) future.

The SCA article is to be expanded and published in Arborist News. I'll try to include a photo and description of the TK in that article.

Mahk

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think we've tossed this one around before; but i'll yield on this Knut deal and do some pix for site that the direct pull goes to the top of the Frenchy, not base. This TK version pulling from the top directly is closer to what i've used? (other leg forms previous choke to Frenchy coil to reduce force to below it's siezing range, so pulls less?)

i switched from Icicle to Knut since Monday after reading Glens et al comments. i, personally had no problems with way i have on site. i'm lighter and on Tenex device tail as possible variables. The first thing at AS i remember seeing stated as a Knut, had a reverse twist, but this version y'all point to seems to be the accepted proper, original. With that, and taking your input, erring on the conservative side; no problem to change it! Also try some of Glen's other tips. i really want to redo the whole thing in MSOffice, have about hit limits of what i'm using to write, edit pages.

The self tending, base finishes of these Knut and Icicle (also self tending) versions transfer over to VT lacings; Knut probably easier. As to form a self tending VT version.

Thanx,
-KC

P.S. Maybe we can get GypoClimber to move up to the Tarbuck!
/forum/images/graemlins/propeller.gif

 

[Yoav]

Hey!

i thought it looked familiar....does anybody use an adjustable grip hitch? It's in Geoffrey Budworths set of knot books

If you anchor into the tail of an adjustable grip hitch, you are using a knut...

On a side note, does that mean that the photo on treespyders website is "not a knut knot?"

 

[Mahk_Adams]

Yoav;

I have two of Budworth's books, but couldn't find any reference to the 'adjustable grip hitch'. Does he list it under another name? Which book(s) do you have? Ashley shows an 'adjustable hitch', but it is what we would call a 'two under, one over tautline' hitch.

The Knut is shown in Glens' attachment. I don't see how anchoring to the tail of another hitch would form a Knut.

The photo on Spydy's site is not a Knut knot. Nor is it a Knute knot, although the Knute knot is in Budworth's books (and in Brion Toss' "Complete Rigger's Apprentice" and "Chapman's Nautical Guides: Knots").

See the Arborist News article mentioned above for the Knut. There is a verbal description and another photo of tying the Knut.

Mahk

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i make all attempts to present the correct forms of everything; and am my own test dummy etc.

So, i figured i'd run this before y'all before posting on website, make sure i have the TK thing right etc.

The Distel changeover won't work making the Knut this way, becuase the Distel(Schwab, TL, Blake's, Icicle etc.)pull from the bottom coil directly, this Knut pulls from top 'pendant'. It worked with what i presented, as it followed the pull from bottom directly and hitch from top tail.

If i have twist in TK right; i'd think it is form discussed before that can be made from upside down distel (1/4); shuffling the top hitch down to the bottom, forming the marl that embraces top pendant tail and host line.

/forum/images/graemlins/propeller.gif

 

[Mahk_Adams]

Ken;

Sorry, I couldn't view your attachment.

I should say that the TK is not an intended variation of the Knut, nor was it Todd's errant attempt to tie the Knut. The TK is truly Todd's own creation. Todd had been tinkering with various configurations to find a hitch that worked well for a false crotch he was using. He had shown the false crotch to me in the fall of 2002 and told me what he was trying to achieve. Sometime after that he told me he had come up with a knot that worked really well and he showed that knot to me at TCI 2003. I was the one who realized that it was so close to the Knut.

You're right, I do remember seeing another knot on AS that was presented as the Knut, but it was not tied correctly.

Since I couldn't see your attachment, I'll just say that the Knut is tied correctly in Glens' attachment. It is tied left handed, but that won't change how it functions.

If you want to view a right handed Knut see the SCA article (one photo of a completed Knut) or the AN article (one photo of a very loosely tied and dressed, but not set, Knut; and one photo of a completed Knut--actually the same photo as in the SCA newsletter).

Hope this helps.

Mahk

 

[glens]

Ken,

I was able to display your image just fine. I would verify it as being correct, near as I can tell.

I'll see what I can do to help you with your site. I may have said this once before and not followed up on it, but my initial idea would be to fetch a complete copy of your site and make the necessary technical modifications locally, then send you copies of the files you'd need to place on the server to replace the ones already there. If you intend to make any structural changes it would probably be better to do that first and let me know when you're ready.

Glen

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Wow, thanx Glen, that is quite generous!

Was thinking of asking you a few questions, as things have slowed down from the hurricane attacks, enough that i have been back to reading about and playing with FrontPage /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif (knew you'd like that). It does have a button to automatically resize the pix, and made the same point that you did, which i never thought about.

i was looking at that as an upgrade to more power and learning too.

Thanks Again,
will email ya,
-KC
/forum/images/graemlins/propeller.gif

 

[Yoav]

Here you go! You should see the resemblence immediately, although it is upside down. I had thought of using it as a friction hitch....and ive separately thought of tying down the tail on single sided knots like a blakes...i suppose the knut hitch is the fusion pof those two concepts!
Its amazing how it really will float up the rope with you.
Try grabbing the adjustable grip hitch by the tail and the stem and it does the same. Its become my standard knot for nonclimbing things.
The layhands sites are some of the best out there for general useful knots. If anybody has an experience using the DOUBLE DRAGON, lets hear it. It looks quite promising, although its not really filling a needed niche....
yo

http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm
http://www.layhands.com/knots/

 

[Mark Chisholm]

How many wraps do you use Yoav?

 

[Mahk_Adams]

Yoav;

Thanks for the links.


[ QUOTE ]
... it is upside down. I had thought of using it as a friction hitch....

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you did use it as a climbing hitch you would be at the stick side of the ropes in the picture? And it would be an open climbing hitch like a Blakes?

Do you use it with a split tail that is the same size as the host line?

Mahk

 

[Yoav]

how many wraps? on the grip hitch for non-climbing, three

for climbing on the knut, umm, lets see ive been using some spectra sailing rope and its three wraps "frenchy coil" plus the lock off ring on the bottom. Using a piece of climbing rope identical to the mainline as a hitch works nicely. I'm not using spliced endsthough, so things got too bulky. I tried a trick where I just tied the two ends together with a bend, and clipped into that new loop, but still too bulky.

Yes, the grip hitch upside down from how it appears in the utility knot would be an open ended version of the knut....
So, to hang on it, the tail and locking ring is on the bottom, and the knot starts from (you) with coils downward.

i just spent a few minutes tying a traditional Ddrt rig using it, so the adjustable grip hitch upside down, or the knut hitch open ended.
It works, but havent tried to climb on it yet.
I think you would really want that end anchored, it feels like the line from your harness to the hitch pulls on the lockoff ring that is so useful.

Wierd though, the other open hitches dont really have a prussik lockbridge that wraps around the standing section in the same way.

I'll have a go with it next time. To improve on it. could always take that prussik tail, tie a loop in it, and clip it into your carabiner with the tie in. An improvement over tradition ddrt, but no improvement over a split tail. Worth thinking about it though.

too bad its not really anything NEW, otherwise i could be naming the next hotshot friction hitch. oh well, there goes my shot at true immortality