Knot question

krapa73

krapa73

Location
VEDUGGIO-MI- ITALY
Hi,reeding the August 06 Arboris-news' article about speed line I'can't recognize which knot is used to keep in tension the speedline system,they talk about French prusik but I dont remember knots with this name I thought it was a v tresse .Usually for this purpose i use a distel.
tongue.gif


Thank you in advance! Matteo
 
As I understand it, a French prusik is when you take an eye-eye sling, take a bunch of wraps like when you're making hte VT, then make no braids, then clip the eyes into the 'biner. When you pull on it, it takes a form SIMILAR to the VT, but lumberjack pointed out to me that where in the VT, one leg goes under/over/under/over, if you watch it in the French Prusik, one leg stays on top.

The French Prusik can also be used to pull in both directions.

love
nick
 
to me a french prussic is what nick discribed, 6 wraps then loaded, it is bi-directional and will work either way, much like a standard prussic, a VT however is a variation and will only work one way.

Jamie
 
i think if'n ya try you can take like an 8 turn Frenchie and connect both ends with krab; then pull/ work a VT out of it.

But anyway; Frenchie with premaid eyes this is a good simple friction hitch to talk ground crew thru making to pull with a 5/1 jig etc, down into Porty to lift or pretension a line; while you are 50' up. In fact with a lil'flair and confidance they can quickly and slickly hold the top leg of a cord to the host line, then kinda jsut quickly twirl host and cord around to get cord to coil 7+ times around host line and then connect eyes together and they are good to go!

Perhaps even less fumbling than cam for them to grab host line; i think better for the line, cheaper, won't get hurt if hit, dropped etc. Cam can be better for dirty conditions of pine sap, mud, ice etc. (and perhaps some kernmantles that the prusiks grab outside and most all force flow is on inside); but otherwise i think the consensus is for our friction hitch strategies.

The way a friction hitch grabs another line; even one under tension and non-invasively; is a very useful strategy for many things, besdies just a climbing hitch; whenever line is a device choice for a task.
 
TreeBuzz.com has a series of Articles, among which are a couple by Mahk
Adams on climbing hitches: read & be enlightened (rather than conjecture).

*kN*
 
Thanks again Mr. Scott, not a Frenchie or VT per se yet.

What the Knude one says is true; Mahk says they are the same (as i was alluding to). But, i think it has been referenced before that arbos kinda keep em seperate.

To me they are kidna different too; like getting groundie to make Frenchie, rather than VT; while you are 50' up; or even standing next to them!

To me; in general the French Prussik strategy is a/the basis for our (now) more popular 'closed' friction hitches or at least just an extension of our Coil. i take 4 uniterupted turns as a coil (per KnudeKnoggin's 1 turn is Single, 2 is round turn, 3 is double round turn, 4 is Coil). i think as we add a half hitch for Schwab, Distel etc.; we add another machine component, to make it a Coil + Half Hitch examination. 2 different machines combined into 1. A strict just turns Frenchie is just a longer, single machine (needing more turns for same job). i think by this examination, the VT is different, by it being a coil machine, with preceding 'braids' to make a gauntlet of bends (like rapelling rack) to preced the 4 turn Coil IMLHO. The other non-VT/MT hitches like Distel, Schwab, Knut, TK,Icicle,Sailor's Gripping Hitch (and MyRide) etc. don't have the preceding braids; but all rather have a variation of a preceding Half Hitch instead; the 4(5) latter listed taking a step further by being self tending(by simialr mechanics themselves). The Icicle especially, very, very close to a Schwab; for a much better hitch, that is also very self tending IMLHO; especially in the flat Tenex as a cord device. But, all from a Coil of 4 turns + another preceding mechanic, that is just more continued turns for a Frenchie (so not a seperate/change of mechanics, jsut extending the same).

Even a Blake follows this Coil + mechanics i think; Klem and Heden still as variants. To me, a 4turn prussik (especially as open hitch) and Taught line (or Rolling/ Midshipmans 1 over 2 version) breaking the mold; and showing that even as jsut a RoundTurn with back up, the gripping strategies are sound; let alone engaging a full Coil +. Even as a cheaper/better (except in 'dirty' conditions) lanyard adjuster; that can increment adjutment under our loads better than cam$.

i think for understanding and confidence these things are best embraced as a whole family; not as spurious, segmented, sprawled out body of knowledge to master each time; per knot. Carry the lessons from one to the next! And try the lanyard adjuster for your own bettermeant, pro-ductivity and expansion of these understandings as a whole.


Orrrrrrrrrrr something ike that!
propeller.gif



edit:Please note that these function for ascendign and descending 1 leg of double line; but for ascend only in single line (or grabbing 2 legs of line as 1). Of curse i have a whole seperate theory of why; but have probably rambled enough(unusual as that is!??)!
 
Go to the top of this page, click the Articles tab and then look for the article 'An Overview of Climbing Hitches', near the bottom of the list of articles. There is a description and photos of all of the knots in question, including the Distel.

In brief:

The term 'French Prusik' includes four knots, the Valdotain, the Valdotain tresse (Vt), the Machard, and the Machard tresse (Mt).

The Valdotain and the Valdotain tresse (Vt) are made with a length of cord (an eye-and-eye split tail). The Machard and the Machard tresse are made with a loop of cord.

The Valdotain and the Machard consist of a series of wraps (typically seven), made with, respectively, a length or cord, and a loop of cord. These are bi-directional, i.e. once tied and dressed, they can be set (pulled) in either direction. When released, however, they do not reliably and consistently re-grip the line.

The Valdotain tresse and the Machard tresse consist of a series of wraps AND braids (tresse is French for 'braid'), made with, respectively a length of cord, and a loop of cord. They are not bi-directional, but, provided they are made with the correct length of cord, the braids keep the cord in contact weith the host line, so they re-grip the host line consistently and reliably after they have been released.

Look for the article 'An Overview of Climbing Hitches', near the bottom of the list of articles in the Articles section of this website. There is a description and photos of all of the knots in question.

And oh yea look for the article 'An Overview of Climbing Hitches', near the bottom of the list of articles in the Articles section of this website. There is a description and photos of all of the knots in question.
santa.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi,reeding the August 06 Arboris-news' article about speed line I'can't recognize which knot is used to keep in tension the speedline system,they talk about French prusik but I dont remember knots with this name I thought it was a v tresse .Usually for this purpose i use a distel.
tongue.gif


Thank you in advance! Matteo

[/ QUOTE ]

Matteo:

See my post above for the French Prusik and Vt.

You could use a Distel for the midline attachment to tension the speedline, but a French Prusik is what is usually recommended. A French Prusik distributes the load over a longer part of the line than the Distel.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi,reeding the August 06 Arboris-news' article about speed line I'can't recognize which knot is used to keep in tension the speedline system,they talk about French prusik but I dont remember knots with this name I thought it was a v tresse .Usually for this purpose i use a distel.
tongue.gif


Thank you in advance! Matteo

[/ QUOTE ]

Matteo:

See my post above for the French Prusik and Vt.

You could use a Distel for the midline attachment to tension the speedline, but a French Prusik is what is usually recommended. A French Prusik distributes the load over a longer part of the line than the Distel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your suggestions! ciao Matteo
grin.gif
 
Mahk_Adams said:

[ QUOTE ]

In brief:

The term 'French Prusik' includes four knots, the Valdotain, the Valdotain tresse (Vt), the Machard, and the Machard tresse (Mt).

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two other friction hitches that go by the name of French Prusik.

The first is the one that I described in my 1967 article and 1973 book. This consists of criss-crossing wraps going down the standing rope and being finished with a bowline at the bottom. This is like a Valdotain tresse without the coils a the top. This name was in use by several people I knew, but nobody seemed to know the origin. The hitches that Mahk describes came from Europe to the US. Geoffrey Budworth seems to follow my terminology in his books.

The other is in the book Alpine Caving Techniques. The name 'French Prusik' is applied to what I would describe as a single-strand Bachmann. This has a slip-knot loop around a carabiner and then a series of wraps around the standing rope and carabiner like a Bachmann. This name was strictly the translator's call. The French original translates to something like "knot with carabiner". I am not digging up my copy from the French original book, so I may not be exact.

The translator also translated "tete d'alouette", literally "head of lark", as "lark's foot". This follows from a typographical error in Modern Rope Techiques by Bill March.

Bob T
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom