Is the footlocking event obsolete?

Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

Allow SRT in the masters, I saw Kevin do SRT proud at Charlotte a couple of years ago. If you want to have an ascent event... which really is a good idea, have an ascent event. Why not roll throwline together with ascent? But eliminating the footlock makes little sense, it's the best demonstration of purely athletic climbing in the prelimins.

Footlocking IS fundamental that's why it's in there to begin with. Just because you haven't used it in years doesn't mean climbers don't footlock anymore; your perception is a product of your own preference. Some of us, many I'll wager, LIKE to footlock. We like the simplicity, the rush of blood and blowing all the stale air out of our lungs before we go to work. I feel refreshed standing at the top of a long footlock and getting changed over to my work system, my head is clear and I can visualize my plan unfolding in my head.

I'm all for SRT and when I tryout a system that I actually like and find practical I'll buy in. I think one good reason why tree guys are slow to pick it up is the 2x TIP force thing on un-isolated trunk ties. That's a pretty good reason when you can see your TIP very well like now in summer foliage. I like having a separate access line but I use a doubled 10mm static for that. SRT is definitely coming to tree care but it hasn't made anything obsolete yet.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

Yeah just got to the video thread and check out that old dude footlocking ,looks pretty live and well to me.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

Perhaps footlocking seems 'fundamental' because it was the first rope ascent method most of us learned, before we'd ever heard of SRT. I think that as SRT becomes less of a novelty and more just a standard work practice (this is already happening in the PNW) then I think we will all see this issue for what it is, namely:
Footlocking is one ropeclimbing method among many. There is not one method that is simplest, most efficient, safest or best for everyone. Different people prefer different methods based on their body type, what trees they climb, what gear they have available or what mood they woke up in. The important thing is that if our ONE rope ascent event in the ITCC (currently the belayed footlock) doesn't reflect the methods of a large portion of working climbers, then it should be updated.

Personally, I think Tom's 'Run what you brung' idea is awesome, and will encourage and reflect the creativity tree climbers are famous (or infamous) for.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

When I was at the ISA conference I talked with a fellow who owns a small tree care company. He had an employee that he was training in as a new climber. All o]f the climbers use some sort of SRT to enter the tree. Most then change over to DdRT.

When the new climber was competent to SRT he was 'deconstructed' and taught body thrust and footlocking.

When the new climber was told that most climbers use those methods to access the canopy he was stunned. Since his frame of reference from the beginning was SRT the only comparison t[hat he had was how hard FL/BT was physically as well as technically.

I hope that FL is NEVER obsolete. It is as fundamental to climbing as tieing a two/three loop rope harness in case a climber is faced with the need to climb but only a rope is available.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

footlocking is as old as rope. Its a pure rope climbing method and the most basic of all climbing techniques. There is no other place where this classic and beautiful method can be demonstrated. I think that toms event would be won by footlockers across the board. I would like to see maybe the rule changed to allow for footlocking on a single line. I think the times might improve somewhat. I dont know. I almost never footlock at work anymore because I don't like working hard at work. However, footlocking will never be obsolete.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

If you're not that familiar with ITCC History, check this out:

http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/History/history.aspx

The concept of the prusik was introduced in 1989, and FL didn't return as the 'secured footlock' until 1991.

Interesting that the ITCC itself reappeared at the Morton after the insurance debacle.

I realize that many old timers know all of this information, I just thought that the evolution of ITCC was interesting and relevant to this thread.

-Tom
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

[ QUOTE ]
I think that toms event would be won by footlockers across the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is, GREAT! I just think that people should be able to use the climbing methods they use at work, which is increasingly SRT.

FYI, at the Puget Sound TCC, the winner (for the FL event) was a climber using SRT with a time of about 15 seconds. I don't remember the exact time, but it was impressive and his technique was refined and elegant.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

[ QUOTE ]
The important thing is that if our ONE rope ascent event in the ITCC (currently the belayed footlock) doesn't reflect the methods of a large portion of working climbers, then it should be updated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoever said that the events had to exactly reflect the majority of work practices? When was the last time you free climbed a tree from bottom to top as fast as you could while you were toproped?? As much as it pains me to compare our competitions to logger sports but you're unlikely to see production fallers using springboards and axes (for cutting) any more either.

I hardly footlock anymore either but I thoroughly enjoy it when I do. While more efficient I can hardly say I get that same satisfaction from using mechanical ascenders and static line. There's something about simplicity of hands and feet on rope when you get the rhythm just right.

You took a stab at the taughtline as well... As further support of 'fundamental' techniques I'll give an anecdote. I never climb on a blakes anymore (now I use either a knut or lockjack) but at least a few times a year I end up tying one in the tail of my line as an impromptu double crotch and in those situations I'm so grateful that I still know how to tie one!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FLing requires isolating your throwline (more time), and leaves you under the selected crotch instead of right next to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I footlock a single line pretty regularly. I actually prefer it most of the time, less wieght to lift which is noticable once you get higher up. I also get cleaner locks without having to worry about missing one side of a doubled rope. Just my opinion.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

[ QUOTE ]
As much as it pains me to compare our competitions to logger sports but you're unlikely to see production fallers using springboards and axes (for cutting) any more either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Murph, you're kinda making my point for me here. Our comps are NOT like timbersports because ours reflect actual work practices of today, not 100 years ago. Whatever happened to the idea that shared experiences and knowledge gained at the TCC would help advance climbing and safety?

As for the tautline, I wouldn't trust a climber that can't tie one. Same with footlocking. Still, your metaphor only proves my point: in the work climb you are allowed to use a tautline, blake's, VT, knut or a spiderjack if you so please. Isn't this the way it ought to be? Would the work climb be better if we were limited to using the tautline instead of all these options that reflect what we use in an actual work climb? Doubt it.

If we limit the competitors' choice of techniques it's only going to stifle creativity and advancement, IMO.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

I totally hear what you're saying but I really can't understand your conviction on this. It seems alot of people are disagreeing with you on here. There are other events that allow you the freedom to innovate including ascent technique. The footlock event is just plain fun, I say leave it be. Its simple, elegant, and effective. This coming from a self professed gear junkie. Let people showcase their technical prowess in the Rescue or Masters.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

Word, fair enough. I was frankly surprised by the number and force of the negative responses to the idea of incorporating SRT into the event when so many of us incorporate it into our work. I still think it should and will happen, but maybe needs to wait longer for a consensus to build up around it.

I think maybe things are just a little further along in the PNW with so many people having given up footlocking for SRT years ago. I really don't like the idea of 'vestigial' skills being mandatory in the TCC. I understand that for folks who love the footlock making a change may seem unnecessary (or worse,) but not all good climbers love the footlock.

Plus I just really love the 'run what you brung' idea, and think it would quickly become a crowd favorite as spectators can see the differences in setup and style from one climber to the next.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

well said murph. i do believe we need and access event on top of the fl event. points on evaluation, method, technique, escape, and of course speed. but to loose the fl event would be like cutting off our root system. i learned to fl at a comp and have taught a few guys to fl at an event, even though i'm not that fast.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

i think its a great idea to incorporate SRT somehow. I just do not think that footlocking should be replaced by SRT.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

On thing is, if you make the prelims take much longer you won't be able to do big comps in a day anymore, things are already getting pretty compressed. Two day comps are more fun to me.

Tree climbing is, among other things about athleticism, and so is the footlock. It's not obsolete, it's primary. No practical competition that I can think of mirrors the discipline from which it arose. Once people take an event seriously they optimize for the event in order to win and eventually the event becomes somewhat abstract. Footlocking ain't all that abstract, lots of climbers do it everyday.

And just to be clear, using SRT isn't AHEAD of anybody, we all have access to the same tools. On the East coast we don't have to climb 150' to go to work, 70' is a long rope climb here so SRT has less value. It takes 5 minutes to get into most eastern trees once the rope is set. Add to that wide canopies and lots of lateral movement, we're more concerned with locating and relocating our TIP than we are with getting into the tree to begin with... and dual handled ascenders and chest boxes and Pantins are just extra crap to get in the way. Like I mentioned before, your perception is strongly colored by your preference... which seems a product of your location... a damn nice location I might add.

If you want to see some REAL innovation, do speed rope ascents match style instead of (or in addition to) the head to head footlock. Make it all out, unlimited competition with minimal gear regs. You already have a belay so folks could really start pushing some limits without fear of serious injury... I'm thinking it could get kinda interesting.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

Most of my climbing career has been spent in Minneapolis. The trees are generally smaller than in the E, SE and W US. Still, SRT has proven its worth. Then Unicender came from upstate NY, not an area known for super tall trees.

I'm not in favor of eliminating the FL from competition. My suggestion is to change it over to a canopy access station. The point is to get from the ground to the bell as quick as possible after all.

This wouldn't add any length to the comp day. It would be a burden on the knowledge and skills of the judges and techs. I know that there are not a lot of people involved with the TCC at chapter and even ITCC that are familiar enough with SRT to know what a proper setup is.

FLing in comps is equal to Pro Stock, SRT is equal to Top Fuel.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

why do we have to modify the fl event? why can't we have a separate accent event? guys and gals are still setting records every year with the fl! you don't run the top fuelers against the pro mods! lets have a separate event and i'm with blinky i like the two day events with the head 2 head fl for the top ten finishers then the masters.
edit
and with the two day events we can put more guys through the events instead of limiting the field to 50 maybe we can do 60 climbers.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

If you're gonna do run whatcha brung, some guys are gonna show up with Wraptors... then they're gonna start modding Wraptors and THEN you'll have Top Fuel.
 
Re: Is FLing obsolete?-caving speed on SRT

lets keep up the conversation this thread was really starting to get interesting. so if we had an accent event what would be the rules and objectives? would there be a walk through? or just straight up racing? if was just racing would it be run head to head with times taken overall? that would bring in some excitement. would there be a decent and time stop when your on the ground? give us your rules and objectives; also long term and short term goals of the event.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom