Is SRT really banned in Germany?

I've always wondered what the most common climbing hitch in use at A given moment

My guess is that it would still be a tautline followed by a Blake's. The rest of the pie would likely be slivers

If so, where is the line between rule and exception? How is a uniform standard set?
 
No disrespect to anyone who knows or has family that has left us by this next question.

When was the last time a climber was injured by a non CE ascender as compared to a stuck by or tie in failure. I understand trying to control what you can, but why choose the one that probably has the smallest percentage of accidents in the field.
 
The whole world's being run by insurance corps it seems. How about instead of banning these products let's encourage the manufacturers to get on the right page. Granted I don't know much about product testing/legal compliance issues but it seems like it wouldn't be too hard for RE, SingingTree, Ropetek to get their products tested and labeled properly for retail, is there some secret test lab no one has access to? Are the testing fees too exorbitant?

Why does it seem they're picking on SRWP systems here? Perhaps they see the way of the future and want to make sure that future is in full compliance with plenty of fees for testing labs and lawyers and regulators.
 
Raven said:
The whole world's being run by insurance corps it seems. How about instead of banning these products let's encourage the manufacturers to get on the right page. Granted I don't know much about product testing/legal compliance issues but it seems like it wouldn't be too hard for RE, SingingTree, Ropetek to get their products tested and labeled properly for retail, is there some secret test lab no one has access to? Are the testing fees too exorbitant?

Why does it seem they're picking on SRWP systems here? Perhaps they see the way of the future and want to make sure that future is in full compliance with plenty of fees for testing labs and lawyers and regulators.
Click to expand...

Or the fact that the future might take rope cordage out of the picture for almost all climbers. I can think of some manufactures who would fight hard to keep us all on our eye-n-eyes. Think of the loss of sales in just that one category. I switched over the the zig zag for just that reason. I climb off a crane and was going through a lot of split tails. Not any more.
 
Can anyone actually produce the standard that they are not passing. My guess would be that it is probably a rubber stamped copy ofvthe UIAA mountaineering standard but I might be wrong.

The question is the underlying problem with most standards world wide. Why can't you Google them, and why aren't they free to own. If you want compliance then start with making the standard free public knowledge.
 
Rock&ice had an explanation of some of this stuff.
http://www.rockandice.com/gear-guide-tips/making-sense-of-the-uiaa-ce-and-3-sigma-ratings
But rec gear is different than work gear standards (not a complete list):
ANSI Standard A10.14‐1991, Requirements for Safety Belts, Harnesses, Lanyards and Lifelines for Construction and Demolition Use
NFPA Standard 1983, Standard on Fire Service Life Safety Rope and System Components
EN Standard 813: 1997, Personal protective equipment for prevention of falls from a height – Sit harnesses
CSA Standard CAN/CSA‐Z259.10‐06, Full Body Harnesses
ANSI Standard Z359.1‐2007, Safety requirements for personal fall arrest systems, subsystems and components
EN Standard 361: 2007, Personal protective equipment against falls from a height – Full body harnesses
Someone in the gear industry would no doubt have many more.
There's a lot of testing agencies as well like TUV for example.
 
The rope wrench would have to be sold in a kit with tether and hitch all assembled on the rope it is to be used on. Much like "CE climb" by teufleberger. The minute the hitch is undone, the CE cert is nullified. I don't think that is practical. But it could be done in order to make sales.

The rope runner is a bit different and hopefully the rr2 will be certified to some standard or another. In the future. The plan was always to make improvements so investing in certification was not practical.
 
treebing said:
The rope wrench would have to be sold in a kit with tether and hitch all assembled on the rope it is to be used on. Much like "CE climb" by teufleberger. The minute the hitch is undone, the CE cert is nullified. I don't think that is practical. But it could be done in order to make sales.

The rope runner is a bit different and hopefully the rr2 will be certified to some standard or another. In the future. The plan was always to make improvements so investing in certification was not practical.
Click to expand...
So how does that work with something like the cinch? It just has a rope size rating on it, not any specific rope or construction
 
Tom, DSMc, et al,

I think the only reason many SRS techniques have not made it into the main stream is merely the resistance to change by climbers themselves. Many times I conduct a trainings and a pulley under a hitch is new. Even something as benign as that, still in many areas, has not become common place.

The wheels of change are square. It takes much energy then they turn suddenly waiting for the next surge.

As for MRS systems. I can't change the past. I can advocate for a smarter move forward. I fully agree that all systems we use for work should meet a basic performance criteria. Hitch/mechanical/MRS/SRS all of them.

As for standards, for much of what we are talking about they do not yet exist or only in part. We need our own. We should do this ourselves, else it will be done for us. I despise the term certified, because it entails too few variables on a fluid work environment and fluid work positioning systems that adapt to it. Meeting a set of accepted criteria seems far more productive, for more open to interpretation, far more useful.

I hope Kevin's German tour is successful. I hope all climbers climb safe. I hope to get information out so all can make reasoned decisions and/or ask reasonable questions. The idea that finance somehow inhibits this does not hold water for me.

Respectfully,

Tony
 
The runner could be to if Mr. Bingham decided to say it is I suppose. How did the cinch get the cert? Maybe the answer for other devices?
 
N.e.Tree said:
The runner could be to if Mr. Bingham decided to say it is I suppose. How did the cinch get the cert? Maybe the answer for other devices?
Click to expand...
I think it would not be as difficult to get the runner a meaningful CE as the wrench system. Being that The hitch is what matters to a wrench.

We have discussed getting a CE certification that the wrench is not a choking hazard or something along those lines.
 
The runner would have to pass both the descent device standard as well as the ascent device standard. The cinch is a descender which is pretty much straightforward .
 
Tony said:
....I think the only reason many SRS techniques have not made it into the main stream is merely the resistance to change by climbers themselves. Many times I conduct a trainings and a pulley under a hitch is new. Even something as benign as that, still in many areas, has not become common place....
Click to expand...

Sorry, Tony. I'm not trying to be a butt here but that also makes no sense. If it did, we wouldn't have all the fancy and very expensive DdRT gizmos. Industry doesn't wait for the slow to catch up but it can hamper development when it is in their interest.
 
Tony said:
Because The comps are not work. Many confuse the two, but they are distant cousins at best

Tony
Click to expand...

I understand that, but as soon as you begin a gear check, it is quite apparent that the International Society of Arboriculture is very concerned about possible liabilities. If it's good enough for them, then I would really take their word for it. How can the german comps allow devices that can't be purchased in the country? I am really having trouble wrapping my head around this.
It's not that it is a fun thing that isn't work. It's that it is organized and regulated by the largest arboriculture organization in the world.
 
I don't know if this just muddies the waters but from HoneyBrothers website in the UK:

"Over the past four years, the Singing Tree Rope Wrench (STRW) has become a well established, popular tool within the Production Climbing industry. Use of the STRW in competitions has been limited, as the STRW had not been widely recognised by competition organisations/committees...until now!
The ISC Singing Tree Rope Wrench system has now gained official acceptance by the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA) and with immediate effect, entrants at ISA events are permitted to compete using the ISC Singing Tree Rope Wrench SRT system!
How was the system tested?
The STRW System was tested in accordance with the relevant clauses of BS EN 12841:2006 Personal Fall Protection Equipment -Rope Access Systems- Rope Adjustment Devices. Static Strength and Dynamic Strength testing was carried out, in accordance with the pertinent articles of the standard. To view full details of the criteria and test results, download the full presentation. The STRW System CANNOTbe certified to the BS EN 12481:2006. VG11, the committee made up of representatives from various notified bodies, has confirmed that it is not possible for the STRW to be certified to BS EN 12481:2006, as the standard does not permit 'techniques' (the tying of a hitch is classed as a 'technique'). There is no standard which is entirely suited to the STRW System (although BS EN 12481:2006 is most relevant standard in existence)."

Note: BS EN 12841 will be the UK version of another standard (can be EU or other), adopted by the British Standards Council for use in the UK - they kinda slap a cover on most of them.

https://honeybros.com/Item/ISC_ZK-2_Singing_Tree_Rope_Wrench
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1lvlcslauf98rt/Rope Wrench System Recommendation 2014.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcukntxdq2g8or2/VG11 CNB11_088 - RfU Knot dressed by user.pdf.pdf
 
I don't know of a relevant US standard that ascenders, descenders or multicenders would meet to be certified.

Does anyone?

The issue of accepting change isn't what is the issue in Germany it seems. Apparently the insurance entity is saying that non certified gear can't be used. That brings me right back to certifying hitches and hitch cords. Is there a German or CE standard test for hitches?

No one is forcing climbers to use a particular hitch or climbing system in the US. Climbers only need to secured from falling when they are off the ground. This leaves a wide range of acceptable solutions

Right now the components have to meet minimum breaking strengths. I don't think that there is a hitch or multicender that has garnered concern for failure. Maybe I've missed that discussion though ...fill me in please

The test for hitches and multicenders would look something like what is used to give the stretch rating for ropes. Again, I don't know of an industry wide agreed upon test for rope test. Help me out if you can I like to learn
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom