If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tree?
- Thread starter Marc_H
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
During the discussion about this topic at the Z committee meeting there were two components discussed.
One was the issue of crop starting then the saw jumps and hits the tree which causes it to hit the climber. Even with the chainbrake we're all caught the saw on the compression stroke and had it jump if it didn't start. Getting clobbered by the saw might only be a little smaller injury.
The other issue is ergonomic. Drop starting will be very hard on all of the arm/shoulder joints after years of pounding.
The intent of the Z is to reduce short term and long term risks to treeworkers. Paperclips can only be bent so many times before they break or kink permanently.
During the discussion about this topic at the Z committee meeting there were two components discussed.
One was the issue of crop starting then the saw jumps and hits the tree which causes it to hit the climber. Even with the chainbrake we're all caught the saw on the compression stroke and had it jump if it didn't start. Getting clobbered by the saw might only be a little smaller injury.
The other issue is ergonomic. Drop starting will be very hard on all of the arm/shoulder joints after years of pounding.
The intent of the Z is to reduce short term and long term risks to treeworkers. Paperclips can only be bent so many times before they break or kink permanently.
- Location
- NJ
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
I don't have much of a problem starting mine with brake on and just pulling the handle. Another disadvantage of drop starting is it puts more force on the cord and it sure sucks when it brakes.
As for big saws it is pretty much the same. Usually you have a place to rest it either on the top of the spar or on the limb you are gonna cut to start. Drop starting a big saw in the tree puts a lot of strain on my shoulder.
I don't have much of a problem starting mine with brake on and just pulling the handle. Another disadvantage of drop starting is it puts more force on the cord and it sure sucks when it brakes.
As for big saws it is pretty much the same. Usually you have a place to rest it either on the top of the spar or on the limb you are gonna cut to start. Drop starting a big saw in the tree puts a lot of strain on my shoulder.
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
i try to have legs up higher than saw or behind spar; brake on. i'm guilty of drop starting an 020. i even get more snatch by dropping saw as i pull up on handle; inputting force at both ends to saw recoil.
A rear handled saw is usually heavier and definitely unbalanced by comparison. An 020 etc. is center balanced and lighter so much more control; with gas tank etc. as ballast to bar/chain. A rear handled saw would have you holding saw at rear; with all the weight and length in front of this pivot.
To me; just like with 2 hands on the saws; the spread of the hands gives more controlling leverage over the rearhandled saw; in 1 hand situation the center balanced saw has the abvantage. The shorter bar on 020 also reduces kickback leverage IMLHO.
i try to have legs up higher than saw or behind spar; brake on. i'm guilty of drop starting an 020. i even get more snatch by dropping saw as i pull up on handle; inputting force at both ends to saw recoil.
A rear handled saw is usually heavier and definitely unbalanced by comparison. An 020 etc. is center balanced and lighter so much more control; with gas tank etc. as ballast to bar/chain. A rear handled saw would have you holding saw at rear; with all the weight and length in front of this pivot.
To me; just like with 2 hands on the saws; the spread of the hands gives more controlling leverage over the rearhandled saw; in 1 hand situation the center balanced saw has the abvantage. The shorter bar on 020 also reduces kickback leverage IMLHO.
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
Drop starting is when the saw moves and the starter handle is stationary. The way that is recommended in order to comply with the Z is to hold the saw still with a stiff arm and pull the rope. By doing this the saw is much less likely to jump around when it starts. Of course, setting the chain brake is necessary. This is subtle but it does make starting the saw safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Every time I've ever held the 020 stationary and pulled the cord, the bar is driven into my leg. Tom, do you know whether or not the ANSI standards per drop starting were made before the advent of the top-handled saw? I can see that since drop-starting is such a no-no, perhaps the comitee would be hesitant to make an exception for top-handled saws?
[ QUOTE ]
Drop starting is when the saw moves and the starter handle is stationary. The way that is recommended in order to comply with the Z is to hold the saw still with a stiff arm and pull the rope. By doing this the saw is much less likely to jump around when it starts. Of course, setting the chain brake is necessary. This is subtle but it does make starting the saw safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Every time I've ever held the 020 stationary and pulled the cord, the bar is driven into my leg. Tom, do you know whether or not the ANSI standards per drop starting were made before the advent of the top-handled saw? I can see that since drop-starting is such a no-no, perhaps the comitee would be hesitant to make an exception for top-handled saws?
- Location
- Denver, Colorado
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Is the stiff arm method legit? I would hate to see someone get sited. In the next revision I think there needs to be some clarification. Seems to me that there is a lot of room for different interpretations of the standards.
Is the stiff arm method legit? I would hate to see someone get sited. In the next revision I think there needs to be some clarification. Seems to me that there is a lot of room for different interpretations of the standards.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Ky,
This discussion was at one of the last couple of Z Committee meetings. That would make it easily within the last couple of years.
Without having a transcript of the committee discussion to review all I have to go on is my memory. You can believe that there was LOTS of discussion about this issue. The wordsmithing that goes on shows the dedication of the committee to set some broad bordered guidelines and still allow for creative interpretation and implimentation of the guidelines.
The Z is meant to be descriptive not prescriptive. Think of this...if a climber shall use a loop knot in the rope that is what is described. Saying that a bowline should be used is prescriptive and could eliminate a lot of other solutions to the same problem.
If drop starting is not allowed, define drop starting and then find another solution. the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time. by holding the saw motionless and pulling the cord the saw user will abide by the standard.
Some of the standards are a bit hard to abide by. Such is life...the committee process does work though.
Ky,
This discussion was at one of the last couple of Z Committee meetings. That would make it easily within the last couple of years.
Without having a transcript of the committee discussion to review all I have to go on is my memory. You can believe that there was LOTS of discussion about this issue. The wordsmithing that goes on shows the dedication of the committee to set some broad bordered guidelines and still allow for creative interpretation and implimentation of the guidelines.
The Z is meant to be descriptive not prescriptive. Think of this...if a climber shall use a loop knot in the rope that is what is described. Saying that a bowline should be used is prescriptive and could eliminate a lot of other solutions to the same problem.
If drop starting is not allowed, define drop starting and then find another solution. the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time. by holding the saw motionless and pulling the cord the saw user will abide by the standard.
Some of the standards are a bit hard to abide by. Such is life...the committee process does work though.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
i even get more snatch by dropping saw as i pull up on handle; inputting force at both ends to saw recoil.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think drop starting is probably ergonomically more efficient but also more dangerous. It is easier to start small and mid sized saws drop starting and with the chain brake on it's pretty safe. I think the real danger was drop starting saws without chain brakes.
I've got a pretty low tolerance for the behavior of most committees.
[ QUOTE ]
i even get more snatch by dropping saw as i pull up on handle; inputting force at both ends to saw recoil.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think drop starting is probably ergonomically more efficient but also more dangerous. It is easier to start small and mid sized saws drop starting and with the chain brake on it's pretty safe. I think the real danger was drop starting saws without chain brakes.
I've got a pretty low tolerance for the behavior of most committees.
- Location
- Denver, Colorado
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
The Z is meant to be descriptive not prescriptive.
If drop starting is not allowed, define drop starting and then find another solution. the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time. by holding the saw motionless and pulling the cord the saw user will abide by the standard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Tom, that makes sense.
[ QUOTE ]
The Z is meant to be descriptive not prescriptive.
If drop starting is not allowed, define drop starting and then find another solution. the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time. by holding the saw motionless and pulling the cord the saw user will abide by the standard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Tom, that makes sense.
- Location
- Austin, TX
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Z is a great thing, but it's no substitute for judgement and experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Z is built on judgment and experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
1st, thanks for your input here. A great asset to this board.
I believe that unless passing a compliance test/cert/etc = lower insurance rates, then they are not worth much.
For example, with my climbing certs from the Gartenbau Berufsgenossenschaft, and compliance with their equivalents (yes, more strengent) to the Z, my liability and disability insurance is cheap as chips in Germany.
We need a system where cert+compliance with rules = safer. Safer = lower cost insurance.
No such animal exists in the USA. A guy with a chainsaw and a ladder pays the same as a university educated, certified, Z following climber. I am assuming they have the same accident rates or at least that is the way insurance co's see it.
The fear of being cited for breaking the Z simply isn't enough as few people live near an OSHA inspector and I bet even fewer OASH inpectors know the codes.
Tim, I would LOVE to hear you opinion on the correlation between codes, certs (training), and insurance rates.
Thanks
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Z is a great thing, but it's no substitute for judgement and experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Z is built on judgment and experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
1st, thanks for your input here. A great asset to this board.
I believe that unless passing a compliance test/cert/etc = lower insurance rates, then they are not worth much.
For example, with my climbing certs from the Gartenbau Berufsgenossenschaft, and compliance with their equivalents (yes, more strengent) to the Z, my liability and disability insurance is cheap as chips in Germany.
We need a system where cert+compliance with rules = safer. Safer = lower cost insurance.
No such animal exists in the USA. A guy with a chainsaw and a ladder pays the same as a university educated, certified, Z following climber. I am assuming they have the same accident rates or at least that is the way insurance co's see it.
The fear of being cited for breaking the Z simply isn't enough as few people live near an OSHA inspector and I bet even fewer OASH inpectors know the codes.
Tim, I would LOVE to hear you opinion on the correlation between codes, certs (training), and insurance rates.
Thanks
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Nathan,
In one way training and compliance are already tied to insurance in the US. When people are safer, they pay less in insurance premiums.
One of the many flaws with our system is that the guy with the chain saw and pickup truck does not even have to carry insurance in most areas.
Below is part of a paper that I had to write for school on the Z133.1 standard that applies to your question.
Please let me know what you think.
TMW
V. Possibilities for the future.
a. Education and Training.
There needs to be a great deal of education and training within the profession starting at the entry level field worker. All workers should be educated and trained to, at the very least, the level of the safety standard. This would at least give exposure to the standard during training.
Arboriculture is taught at a number of schools around the United States and the world. Many programs are incorporating safety aspects into the curriculum. There has been an increase in funding available for research into the nature of accidents as well as for specific training. For some, including the author, school provided an introduction to the standard. The Standard should be a mandatory part of all arboriculture education.
b. Insurance Requirements.
Following the standard will reduce many injuries and fatalities. There will always be risk associated with arboriculture, but there should be significant reductions. The reductions in accidents will have additional benefits, beyond the fact that fewer workers will be killed or injured. The profession will see reductions in insurance premiums, and increases in profit and have a better reputation.
Some of the insurance companies are taking a much closer look at the risk associated with this profession and mandating that their insured have proper safety programs and follows all appropriate standards. The reduction in accident rates would make it more profitable to insurance companies and would reduce premiums for tree care companies.
c. Licensing.
Another way to increase the impact of the standard is to require some form of licensing in order to perform arboricultural services. The licensing could mandate that all appropriate safety standards are followed as well as all employees are educated and trained to perform the work. There are some municipalities that require this, but there are few and the procedures are inconsistent at best.
A licensing program could be established at the national level. The program could be adapted/adopted by local or regional authorities. The essential components would be adhering to the current safety standard, proper education and training for all affected employees, and proper insurance.
Nathan,
In one way training and compliance are already tied to insurance in the US. When people are safer, they pay less in insurance premiums.
One of the many flaws with our system is that the guy with the chain saw and pickup truck does not even have to carry insurance in most areas.
Below is part of a paper that I had to write for school on the Z133.1 standard that applies to your question.
Please let me know what you think.
TMW
V. Possibilities for the future.
a. Education and Training.
There needs to be a great deal of education and training within the profession starting at the entry level field worker. All workers should be educated and trained to, at the very least, the level of the safety standard. This would at least give exposure to the standard during training.
Arboriculture is taught at a number of schools around the United States and the world. Many programs are incorporating safety aspects into the curriculum. There has been an increase in funding available for research into the nature of accidents as well as for specific training. For some, including the author, school provided an introduction to the standard. The Standard should be a mandatory part of all arboriculture education.
b. Insurance Requirements.
Following the standard will reduce many injuries and fatalities. There will always be risk associated with arboriculture, but there should be significant reductions. The reductions in accidents will have additional benefits, beyond the fact that fewer workers will be killed or injured. The profession will see reductions in insurance premiums, and increases in profit and have a better reputation.
Some of the insurance companies are taking a much closer look at the risk associated with this profession and mandating that their insured have proper safety programs and follows all appropriate standards. The reduction in accident rates would make it more profitable to insurance companies and would reduce premiums for tree care companies.
c. Licensing.
Another way to increase the impact of the standard is to require some form of licensing in order to perform arboricultural services. The licensing could mandate that all appropriate safety standards are followed as well as all employees are educated and trained to perform the work. There are some municipalities that require this, but there are few and the procedures are inconsistent at best.
A licensing program could be established at the national level. The program could be adapted/adopted by local or regional authorities. The essential components would be adhering to the current safety standard, proper education and training for all affected employees, and proper insurance.
- Location
- Hawaii
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but without the chain brake on, chain spins, operator looses control, and gets cut despite not drop starting. Thus, the chain brake is the pivotal decision, no?
[/ QUOTE ]
I second that one!
jp
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but without the chain brake on, chain spins, operator looses control, and gets cut despite not drop starting. Thus, the chain brake is the pivotal decision, no?
[/ QUOTE ]
I second that one!
jp
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that in ANSI?
[ QUOTE ]
...the committee process does work though.
[/ QUOTE ]
In general, yes, but I wouldn't give them carte blanche to write whatever they want. It is important to have the participation and involvment of as many segments of the industry as possible, both direct involvment, such as being at committee meetings, and indirect involvement, such as contributing to the drafts during the public comment periods.
[ QUOTE ]
the definition of drop starting is to have the saw and the starter cord moving in opposite directions at the same time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that in ANSI?
[ QUOTE ]
...the committee process does work though.
[/ QUOTE ]
In general, yes, but I wouldn't give them carte blanche to write whatever they want. It is important to have the participation and involvment of as many segments of the industry as possible, both direct involvment, such as being at committee meetings, and indirect involvement, such as contributing to the drafts during the public comment periods.
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
ANSI Z133.1 -2006
6.3.5 When starting a chain saw, the operator shall hold the saw firmly in place on the ground
or otherwise support the saw a manner that minimizes movement of the saw when pulling
the starter handle. The chain saw shall be started with the chain brake engaged, on
saws so equipped. Drop-starting a chain saw is prohibited.
drop-starting (6.3.5): The act of starting a chain saw by pushing the saw away from the body
with one hand while simultaneously pulling on the starter cord handle with the other.
ANSI Z133.1 -2006
6.3.5 When starting a chain saw, the operator shall hold the saw firmly in place on the ground
or otherwise support the saw a manner that minimizes movement of the saw when pulling
the starter handle. The chain saw shall be started with the chain brake engaged, on
saws so equipped. Drop-starting a chain saw is prohibited.
drop-starting (6.3.5): The act of starting a chain saw by pushing the saw away from the body
with one hand while simultaneously pulling on the starter cord handle with the other.
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Thanks Tim.
Thanks Tim.
- Location
- western ny
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
[ QUOTE ]
You can secure it between your legs and pull it to start it.
[/ QUOTE ]
if I put the bar between my legs then I would have to pull it with my right hand, how would I see the on/off or choke??
[ QUOTE ]
You can secure it between your legs and pull it to start it.
[/ QUOTE ]
if I put the bar between my legs then I would have to pull it with my right hand, how would I see the on/off or choke??
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Scenario:
I stripped out the top of a tree.
I am now working on dropping logs from the single trunk.
I send down the 200T and ask for the 460 w/24" bar because the diameter has gotten large.
I'm dropping 15' logs: I'm 15 feet down from the top of the stalk.
I have the groundman start the 460 saw on the ground and send it up.
The saw gets to me, but then dies. I need to restart it.
-----------------------------------------------------
There's no way I could pinch it between my legs (on a big diameter on spurs and lanyards), plus it would then probably be laying across my lanyards or right under them. Holding it out with a stiff arm and starting, is pretty darn hard to do, I imagine some people could not be strong enough to do this.
I put the chain brake on, hit the decompression button and drop start it to my side. Starts effortlessly and safe. Even if it were to lock up, I don't see how it can hit you, but I sounds like people manage to somehow.
Other ways to start it?: Climb to the top of the spar?? Send it back down to the the men and hope it stays running this time? Neither practical.
I never have believed that more trama happens to the arms from drop starting that using a stiff arm. (maybe if I saw a good study on it) Holding a saw out stiff arm (and not between the legs) while starting and it compression locks, always feels like it hurts me much more than when drop starting. And it doens't take as much compression pressure when using a stiff arm to tweak it in your hand. Drop starting has so much more force that it turns the engine through the whole stroke.
---------------------------------------------
I guess all these standards should be taken like this: They are created to save lives and make people safer by educating people with the written rules with the best practices for the most common situations. (I understand this and it's great they exist). There will always be exceptions. But don't mention those exceptions because the possibilities are too vast and it would give people a way to show they were following the rule and still got hurt. Every one of these rules should end with: this should be done in a safe manner that results in no harm to the operator or bystandards. That way, if they get hurt, they broke the rule.
Scenario:
I stripped out the top of a tree.
I am now working on dropping logs from the single trunk.
I send down the 200T and ask for the 460 w/24" bar because the diameter has gotten large.
I'm dropping 15' logs: I'm 15 feet down from the top of the stalk.
I have the groundman start the 460 saw on the ground and send it up.
The saw gets to me, but then dies. I need to restart it.
-----------------------------------------------------
There's no way I could pinch it between my legs (on a big diameter on spurs and lanyards), plus it would then probably be laying across my lanyards or right under them. Holding it out with a stiff arm and starting, is pretty darn hard to do, I imagine some people could not be strong enough to do this.
I put the chain brake on, hit the decompression button and drop start it to my side. Starts effortlessly and safe. Even if it were to lock up, I don't see how it can hit you, but I sounds like people manage to somehow.
Other ways to start it?: Climb to the top of the spar?? Send it back down to the the men and hope it stays running this time? Neither practical.
I never have believed that more trama happens to the arms from drop starting that using a stiff arm. (maybe if I saw a good study on it) Holding a saw out stiff arm (and not between the legs) while starting and it compression locks, always feels like it hurts me much more than when drop starting. And it doens't take as much compression pressure when using a stiff arm to tweak it in your hand. Drop starting has so much more force that it turns the engine through the whole stroke.
---------------------------------------------
I guess all these standards should be taken like this: They are created to save lives and make people safer by educating people with the written rules with the best practices for the most common situations. (I understand this and it's great they exist). There will always be exceptions. But don't mention those exceptions because the possibilities are too vast and it would give people a way to show they were following the rule and still got hurt. Every one of these rules should end with: this should be done in a safe manner that results in no harm to the operator or bystandards. That way, if they get hurt, they broke the rule.
- Location
- Grand Marais, MN
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
Sounds like the cost of having a tree worked on just went up. Way up.
Sounds like the cost of having a tree worked on just went up. Way up.
- Location
- Austin, TX
Re: If you follow the Z how do start a saw in a tr
It worked that way with regs in Germany. Of course if you own trees there, you have money.
I believe that the natural tendency to drop start (or combo)is due to the fact that it is the most efficient and ergonic way(no, no necessarily the safest) as it distributes the pulling action over the arm doing the pulling, the arm doing the pushing, and the work gravity is doing. When not drop starting with arm locked, that force is all at one point.
.02
It worked that way with regs in Germany. Of course if you own trees there, you have money.
I believe that the natural tendency to drop start (or combo)is due to the fact that it is the most efficient and ergonic way(no, no necessarily the safest) as it distributes the pulling action over the arm doing the pulling, the arm doing the pushing, and the work gravity is doing. When not drop starting with arm locked, that force is all at one point.
.02
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