I am removing the SAKA from the market.

And for the sake of comparing innovation, here is a picture from the 1996 edition of Jerry Baranek's book The Fundamentals of General Tree Work page 142
Beranek 1.webp

take a look at that rope walker system, it's all there, braided rope tether and footloop, single fixed point bungee
Beranek 2.webp
Now look at the newer systems side by side
Beranek 4.webp
There is no doubt the HAAS is innovative, and there is no doubt the SAKA is innovative in a different direction.

I prefer the SAKA because I think it offers much more, but I am fine with both devices as long as one is not trying to rid the world of the other one. Both likely owe the same debt to the pit cave spelunkers of the 1930's and 40's.

All this to say Weaver needs to go sell the HAAS they own the patent on and knock off the litigation, they don't own rope walking.
 
treebing said:
If Richard gets his patent which I hope he does, Would someone be able to circumvent it by using three bungees in three straws?
Click to expand...
Kevin, let me ask you this. "Literally or under the doctrine of equivalents", if you are climbing SRT with a base anchor, can you release that anchor while in the tree? If there are 2 or "3" lines running to the same place, does it make any difference? Sounds rather equivalent doesn't it?
Does now switching those lines to DRT sound equivalent to the SRT configuration? With those lines in DRT can you now disconnect the end or even both ends of the line while in the tree? Does that sound equivalent to SRT? Don't think so. What if you take 3 lines but still in a DRT configuration? Does that sound equivalent?
Kernmantle rope has a load bearing core with an outside liner, correct? Does it matter how many strands are inside that cover? 1, 3, 500? 16 strand rope has it's load bearing on the outside. Would it seem reasonable that these are equivalent designs?
If we want to compare equivalents, we need to do it apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
 
I met Michael when he was working at the Knot and Rope supply as a splicer. He was also a climber. This was back at the beginning days of the rope wrench. Anyway, He called me up one day out of the blue and was all giddy and said that he had just come up with an idea that in a short period of time everyone would be climbing on. He said EVERYONE. And it was great cause it worked so awesome with the rope wrench. I was like yeah right whatever. Anyway, A short while later we met up and he pulled out of his bag his prototype HAAS and gave me a quick demonstration. I stood there jaw dropped and said yeah your damn right EVERYONE is going to be climbing on a knee ascender with the bungee in a straw. A short while later pretty much EVERYONE is climbing with a bungee in a straw.

They were climbing with bungees as long as there were bungees. It goes back way further than Gerry Beraneks rope walker. I was climbing with a bungee when I read about it in on rope. it took me an hour to set up, I finally got it dialed in to work, all the measurements right, everything squared away, and it worked great. Amazing. The next day I took it out again and it again took me forever to figure out how to dial it in. yeah if your a caver maybe. hell no give me the frog system. Stick the bungee in a straw BINGO!!!!! thats a jackpot. or it should be.
 
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treebing said:
I met Michael when he was working at the Knot and Rope supply as a splicer. He was also a climber. This was back at the beginning days of the rope wrench. Anyway, He called me up one day out of the blue and was all giddy and said that he had just come up with an idea that in a short period of time everyone would be climbing on. He said EVERYONE. And it was great cause it worked so awesome with the rope wrench. I was like yeah right whatever. Anyway, A short while later we met up and he pulled out of his bag his prototype HAAS and gave me a quick demonstration. I stood there jaw dropped and said yeah your damn right EVERYONE is going to be climbing on a knee ascender with the bungee in a straw. A short while later pretty much EVERYONE is climbing with a bungee in a straw.

They were climbing with bungees as long as there were bungees. It goes back way further than Gerry Beraneks rope walker. I was climbing with a bungee when I read about it in on rope. it took me an hour to set up, I finally got it dialed in to work, all the measurements right, everything squared away, and it worked great. Amazing. The next day I took it out again and it again took me forever to figure out how to dial it in. yeah if your a caver maybe. hell no give me the frog system. Stick the straw in a bungee BINGO!!!!! thats a jackpot. or it should be.
Click to expand...
Thanks Kevin, good story and it helps me understand the great frustration and cause for so much controversy. In the end, I'm sorry I got into all of this. Somebody left their job with huge hopes, invested into it and thought it was golden street, I ruined it. That's unfortunate and I blame the universe for sending me such ideas. So, the SAKA is truly off the market, now I won't sell, trade or give one away.
 
Thank you Kevin this piece of the back story does shed more light on the personal frustration that has to be there for Michael.

As a community, our ability to rope walk, is the product of thousands of brilliant minds making incremental improvements to prior innovations over 100s of years.

Michael recently pushed rope walking forward in a big way by adding his own brilliant improvements including the bungee through the straw. In my mind this gives him the right to monetize those improvements to feed his family and make some cash if he can, this is fair.

As a community member that benefits from and pays for the results, I do not think that any of those thousands of brilliant people have the right to tell Michael he is not allowed to make or sell those improvements. That kind of power over him would have denied him an honest income, and denied the entire community the fruits of his inspired work.

This is the catch, if I apply this thinking to Michael, I have to apply it to Richard along with the other thousands of minds past and future.
I believe it is possible to protect and earn money from the things you create, without controlling the creative flow for everyone else.

Not accusing anyone of thinking differently, I'm just spelling this out to get it straight in my own head.
 
Collaboration and innovation are for me the most important aspects of our industry. What a disappointment this is. Richard, your contribution to our industry has been fantastic, I hope you continue to push ideas and I look forward to climbing a tree together again one day soon.
 
treebing said:
should someone else also be able to monetize the idea as well without compensating Michael? especially when legal I s are dotted and ts are crossed. Michael read and followed the how to text book on the subject. is it fair to make a slicker product at a better bargain so that no one wants to buy Michael's original game changer product leaving him out of his massive investment. what's the point?
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Well, that is certainly a consideration, but it is also about us, the end consumer, having choices. Progress happens and it is not good when self-interested forces try to stifle it from considerations of profit instead of what is best for the end user. There was truly massive investment throughout history in many things, the Model-T Ford, percussion cap firearms, mainframe computers, etc. from both big companies and also individuals, but do we want to be forced to keep using something when something slightly better comes along? We are seeing some amazing developments in climbing technology in our lifetimes, compared to centuries of fiber rope and a prayer. And it is really accelerating recently with truly neat gadgets, rope, etc. We want to see this momentum maintained not squelched, especially with guys like both Michael and Richard. They should be able to cooperate, not be pitted against one another by corporate interests. And WE are the losers when this crap happens. Just look at the guys right here in this thread who have stated they wished they had bought a SAKA before it was too late.
 
theatertech87 said:
Has there been any discussion of cost related to Weaver licensing their patent?
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That would be way to logical.

I don't know, but the feeling I get from reading all those threads a couple of years ago, is that things escalated pretty quickly when the SAKA was introduced, and moved to lawsuits pretty fast. There was not a lot of room for calm negotiating in there, just my opinion.
 
holy crap... This whole thing stinks! Personally I'm not down with weaver. However if every one remembers HAAS 1.0 came out, refining the knee ascender. Richard creatively took the idea to a new level, posted open source instructions, video's etc. HAAS 2.0 refined with a blend of HAAS 1.0 and the SAKA. Somewhere in there people whom couldn't or didn't want to make their own SAKA started asking Richard to make the SAKA for them. Then Richard took down the videos, and (I think some of the instructions) and to put the SAKA into production.

In my opinion it took it's natural course of action. Obviously somewhere down the line HAAS hired sent a cease and desist letter, sold the rights (in some form) to weaver, who then intern proceeded to follow in HAAS's path.

Personally I'd be pissed if I invested all this time and energy making a product, bringing it to market, only to have some one post detailed DIY instructions on something very similar (same function, and really basically the very close to the same thing). To add insult then this person starts production on it.

I like Richard as most of you do, he's popular. Just gotta call it like I see it.

I made my own HAAS 1.0, didnt care for it much.
Then I made my own SAKA, like it, but made it a little too short and bungee was too strong
I then made a HAAS/SAKA hybrid which was rad! 1/2" double braid cover, and a petzl pantin (the new mini one).
Afterwards, I realized the weak points in my design and got tired of f-in with it, and a used HAAS 2.0 came up on treebay, so I snagged it. It certainly does the job, and serves it purpose.

FYI Weaver sucks, and I also made my own bag bags thingingy
 
treebing said:
I met Michael when he was working at the Knot and Rope supply as a splicer. He was also a climber. This was back at the beginning days of the rope wrench. Anyway, He called me up one day out of the blue and was all giddy and said that he had just come up with an idea that in a short period of time everyone would be climbing on. He said EVERYONE. And it was great cause it worked so awesome with the rope wrench. I was like yeah right whatever. Anyway, A short while later we met up and he pulled out of his bag his prototype HAAS and gave me a quick demonstration. I stood there jaw dropped and said yeah your damn right EVERYONE is going to be climbing on a knee ascender with the bungee in a straw. A short while later pretty much EVERYONE is climbing with a bungee in a straw.

They were climbing with bungees as long as there were bungees. It goes back way further than Gerry Beraneks rope walker. I was climbing with a bungee when I read about it in on rope. it took me an hour to set up, I finally got it dialed in to work, all the measurements right, everything squared away, and it worked great. Amazing. The next day I took it out again and it again took me forever to figure out how to dial it in. yeah if your a caver maybe. hell no give me the frog system. Stick the bungee in a straw BINGO!!!!! thats a jackpot. or it should be.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that post Kevin. So many people are on the side of the SAKA it's just nice to hear a personal and very human story about Michael f. I can imagine the emotion and joy when he came up with his prototype. I have a first gen HAAS and id throw down with someone before having it taken away. It's too bad there can be two devices. I likely would jave stayed HAAS just cuz of my great first experience with mine.
Sorry for your struggles @yoyoman
 
That is a good analogy, imagine if Morgan had sold his patent early on to Weaver for the Uni and they through their financial might stopped the progress of any of the new mechanicals because they did a similar job?

This imo why this stinks so bad , now we won't get the next inovations that would naturally supercede the Same all because yet another greedy cooperation wants to make a few more bucks....

I for one won't be buying anything from Weaver because of their suppression of innovation
 
treebing said:
has anyone here bought anything weaver in the last ten years?
Click to expand...

Sling runners and throwbags from my local arborist retailer. Hey and I like those little Kong rated non-locker accessory biners they had in a box at the counter that nobody wanted ;-) Sometimes the gear is in the right place at the right time.

I'm super disappointed that something couldn't be worked out to keep the SAKA on the market. In a perfect world we look at a smart improvement to existing gear concepts and say "Right on!". Weaver would do well to buy out or reach some licensing agreement with Richard on all the R&D he's done on the SAKA, win/win for everyone.
-AJ
 
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