Grapple, grapple saw, hydraulic connections?

[Kottonwood]

Alright looking for some input on an upcoming decision for me.

I finally got around to adding a remote control and two extra valves on my knuckle boom (was definitely not cheap or easy, but way worth it). So, now I can theoretically run hydraulic power to the end of the boom. I have ordered the reels, but they are a month out, so I'm waiting on them now.

My main consideration is whether to just add a grapple or to bite the bullet and go for a grapple saw.

I am only a contractor now, no employees. My current rate for my crane is 175 an hour. If I got a grapple saw I would want to make at least 250, probably more. Some of my clients have expressed they'd want that, others say they'd rather climb and save the money because they're climbers and that's what they do. I'm open to comments on my pricing. Most people hire me not because of the size of my crane, but because of my experience in the industry doing hundreds of crane removals on both sides of the rope. ....it also helps I can haul all the material for them.


My first concern with the grapple saw, other than price is whether my crane is big enough to really make it make sense (see load chart below). I'd probably go with the sg160 vs the sg220 due to weight, which would mean a significant amount of most trees would need to be craned out anyways.

My other question is if some of you guys that own this stuff could show me some pics of your reels and your hydraulic quick connects. I want to get an idea for the best way to set mine up. Luckily no welding will be required on the boom, there are threaded holes in the right spots. I will fabricate brackets and bolt them on. I am just looking for some ideas about hose orientation/routing and the quick connect on the end so that it is easy to remove and replace the grapple.

I'm open to any and all comments on my situation, so lay it on me and thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[Steve Connally]

The Faster Quick Connect is the standard on the already plumbed trucks. As for your set up. Figure the saw weight. the 280 is 880lbs. You should be shooting for 70% of chart but you probably know that from your crane experience anyway. The 160 is 550lbs. I have been a sub with my crane for 5 years. People hire me to grapple. The point of the grapple saw in my market is to keep climbers on the ground. I do jobs nobody wants to be in the tree for and jobs that have such a small drop zone that making brush picks isn't practical. If they have room for that they can rent a stick crane. My operation is just a different tool and resource for them to get the tree down in the safest and most efficient manner. Markets are different. Your crane would never bring in what you're asking in my market. I have an 88 mt knucklebone with 2 grapple saws and I bill at $230 an hour. My market wont sustain much more than that without having work become very unpredictable and infrequent. Anybody who says they'd rather climb and "save the money" is missing the big picture. You're not saving anything. When you hire out a crane, you the business owner, aren't supposed to be absorbing any cost. The customer is paying for the crane if you bid correctly. What they're essentially telling you is they underbid the job or they just want to keep more of the profit and no share it. It's a backwards way of looking at a business. I run into it all the time from people who cant see the forrest through the trees. Let's save money on the crane but increase labor expense with lack of efficiency and increased production time and cost. Anyway good luck with your path forward.

 

[Steve Connally]

I'd post you some pics but I don''t know if they'd help.. mine is on my fly not the outer boom like yours. If you need bracket pics I can send those but anything other than that would be unlikely to help you.

 

[Kottonwood]

I'd post you some pics but I don''t know if they'd help.. mine is on my fly not the outer boom like yours. If you need bracket pics I can send those but anything other than that would be unlikely to help you.

Thanks for your responses. I googled faster connections and that's what I am going to go with. I'm gonna send them an email now. In the fun with knuckle boom thread I saw that another guy is having hell trying to get a dealer to install a grapple on his crane.... Hence why I'm doing it myself, no one wants to help. So, I really appreciate any advice I can get. I have been looking for something like that faster connection for some time and haven't been able to find it.

Your preaching to the choir about the "cost" of using a crane.... Some guys get it and some don't. Most guys i currently work for are small time outfits who don't have the ability to haul big wood, that's where my cost really gets justified. Other guys would just rather work with me if my crane can reach, even if a bigger crane doesn't cost that much more. Thanks for sharing your pricing, I guess I might be way out of line with what the addition of a grapple saw should do for my pricing.

I'm well aware of where I need to stay capacity wise. Hence shooting for the sg160. Do you think a grapple saw that small is worth having?

I'm pretty ok with infrequent tree work. I have a construction and welding business that I also am doing. I did tree work for ten years and I started to get bored, even though I was doing some of the biggest baddest trees everyday. If people don't want to pay my price, it's fine with me. Plenty do, and usually once I work for someone once, I will get a call back once every month or two.

Currently I'm leaning towards just a grapple. It would only cost a few grand and I could always upgrade to the saw later if I decide to go that route.

I'd love to hear from tree guys that hire grapple saws as well. Are any guys out there regularly hiring one? Is any one other than Steve contracting one out?

 

[evo]

The Faster Quick Connect is the standard on the already plumbed trucks. As for your set up. Figure the saw weight. the 280 is 880lbs. You should be shooting for 70% of chart but you probably know that from your crane experience anyway. The 160 is 550lbs. I have been a sub with my crane for 5 years. People hire me to grapple. The point of the grapple saw in my market is to keep climbers on the ground. I do jobs nobody wants to be in the tree for and jobs that have such a small drop zone that making brush picks isn't practical. If they have room for that they can rent a stick crane. My operation is just a different tool and resource for them to get the tree down in the safest and most efficient manner. Markets are different. Your crane would never bring in what you're asking in my market. I have an 88 mt knucklebone with 2 grapple saws and I bill at $230 an hour. My market wont sustain much more than that without having work become very unpredictable and infrequent. Anybody who says they'd rather climb and "save the money" is missing the big picture. You're not saving anything. When you hire out a crane, you the business owner, aren't supposed to be absorbing any cost. The customer is paying for the crane if you bid correctly. What they're essentially telling you is they underbid the job or they just want to keep more of the profit and no share it. It's a backwards way of looking at a business. I run into it all the time from people who cant see the forrest through the trees. Let's save money on the crane but increase labor expense with lack of efficiency and increased production time and cost. Anyway good luck with your path forward.

That is a damn shame your market has you capped at $230!
That is about the price of our local boom truck.
About 10 years ago some guy blew all his retirement money on a pair of grove cranes, at that time his little one was over $200 per hour and I can’t recall if the big one was 240 or 275.. he also included travel time, and a surcharge for anytime he had to reset the crane. Really frustrating when it was his call on where to set the crane, spend a very slow hour to hour and a half getting set, squirting the boom out and discovering he was wrong. Then getting billed to reset, blowing another hour +!

Seriously surprised your not closer to 3-350 with your mech..

 

[Steve Connally]

That is a damn shame your market has you capped at $230!
That is about the price of our local boom truck.
About 10 years ago some guy blew all his retirement money on a pair of grove cranes, at that time his little one was over $200 per hour and I can’t recall if the big one was 240 or 275.. he also included travel time, and a surcharge for anytime he had to reset the crane. Really frustrating when it was his call on where to set the crane, spend a very slow hour to hour and a half getting set, squirting the boom out and discovering he was wrong. Then getting billed to reset, blowing another hour +!

Seriously surprised your not closer to 3-350 with your mech..

I could probably get a little more but the truth of the matter is I'd rather have regular work at my price come in pretty consistently than waiting for work to come in at a higher prices less frequently. Bird in the hand analogy. My opinion---with my truck, experience, what I bring to the job, and what I do aside from just pushing levers, I'm worth $375/400 an hour easy. Market wont sustain that and I'd be cutting out work for a lot of my clients who don't take those hazardous jobs unless I can do them.

 

[Steve Connally]

@Kottonwood 160 is a bad ass little saw. You can easily get down to 18' wood with that. Just less ballast due to the head weight so you have to take smaller picks. I wouldn't but a grapple without a saw. Single purpose tool. Why not have the saw incase you wanna use it. Rather do that than kick myself wishing I had bought one. I grapple everything except log picks. Thats how my customers want me to work. They want to keep the climber on the ground for whatever reason or the DZ dictates small pieces. I'm not trying to compete with the cable cranes. We're not the same tool. If you want big brush picks....I sure can do it but the 33t stick crane or even the 60t are cheaper than I am so if the resources, DZ, abilities of the company can handle it, then go with the cable crane. Don't want somebody in the tree except for logs then call me. Just different tools. You cannot compare your market to mine. You know what you can charge, I don't. You've gotta come up with your own numbers. Don't let me discourage you.

 

[Steve Connally]

I hardly use my 160 but I have a large crane class unit. When I hat my 50 I used the 160 all the time!!

 

[evo]

I could probably get a little more but the truth of the matter is I'd rather have regular work at my price come in pretty consistently than waiting for work to come in at a higher prices less frequently. Bird in the hand analogy. My opinion---with my truck, experience, what I bring to the job, and what I do aside from just pushing levers, I'm worth $375/400 an hour easy. Market wont sustain that and I'd be cutting out work for a lot of my clients who don't take those hazardous jobs unless I can do them.

I hear that, always a difficult balance.. better to work 40 hours at 230 than 20 at 300

 

[MA Arborist]

I was wondering about a grapple with rotator for the kboom

It’s a lot lighter

I figure it is a decent backup when the grapple saw is down. I know that would mean I have to work aloff. No big deal for me.

 

[Treetopflyer]

Thanks for your responses. I googled faster connections and that's what I am going to go with. I'm gonna send them an email now. In the fun with knuckle boom thread I saw that another guy is having hell trying to get a dealer to install a grapple on his crane.... Hence why I'm doing it myself, no one wants to help. So, I really appreciate any advice I can get. I have been looking for something like that faster connection for some time and haven't been able to find it.

Your preaching to the choir about the "cost" of using a crane.... Some guys get it and some don't. Most guys i currently work for are small time outfits who don't have the ability to haul big wood, that's where my cost really gets justified. Other guys would just rather work with me if my crane can reach, even if a bigger crane doesn't cost that much more. Thanks for sharing your pricing, I guess I might be way out of line with what the addition of a grapple saw should do for my pricing.

I'm well aware of where I need to stay capacity wise. Hence shooting for the sg160. Do you think a grapple saw that small is worth having?

I'm pretty ok with infrequent tree work. I have a construction and welding business that I also am doing. I did tree work for ten years and I started to get bored, even though I was doing some of the biggest baddest trees everyday. If people don't want to pay my price, it's fine with me. Plenty do, and usually once I work for someone once, I will get a call back once every month or two.

Currently I'm leaning towards just a grapple. It would only cost a few grand and I could always upgrade to the saw later if I decide to go that route.

I'd love to hear from tree guys that hire grapple saws as well. Are any guys out there regularly hiring one? Is any one other than Steve contracting one out?

When we were really busy last year and some of year before I had my friend Rick in with his 63palfinger weekly and wished i could have had him more. They would typically be our biggest money days of the week if all logistics worked out. I to am looking to add an sg160 to end of my crane which a little 25 m/ton with a pretty stout chart for its size it was Ricks first crane. Around here a sub I think requires at least a 40 m/ton to be production enough in length and have any capacity, probably a 65 or bigger an 88 like Steve's will give really give folks the production levels they looking for around these parts.. I'm sure if I added a grapplsaw I'd get calls for it though even if all the way stretched out 80 feet under 45 degrees I'd be good to pick only a 300 pound limb. But you know what ,That's saving someone going up in the tree and I know that's worth it to somebody out there. Like Steve said, Most our landing zones and work areas are so tight here the grappesaw is the best compared to stick crane cause it's not the biggest pick since you can't fit it anyway to put down. Mekkin is a nice flow of work manageable for a small ground crew.. maybe even 1 man with mini loader and descent chipper.

 

[Kottonwood]

@Kottonwood 160 is a bad ass little saw. You can easily get down to 18' wood with that. Just less ballast due to the head weight so you have to take smaller picks. I wouldn't but a grapple without a saw. Single purpose tool. Why not have the saw incase you wanna use it. Rather do that than kick myself wishing I had bought one. I grapple everything except log picks. Thats how my customers want me to work. They want to keep the climber on the ground for whatever reason or the DZ dictates small pieces. I'm not trying to compete with the cable cranes. We're not the same tool. If you want big brush picks....I sure can do it but the 33t stick crane or even the 60t are cheaper than I am so if the resources, DZ, abilities of the company can handle it, then go with the cable crane. Don't want somebody in the tree except for logs then call me. Just different tools. You cannot compare your market to mine. You know what you can charge, I don't. You've gotta come up with your own numbers. Don't let me discourage you.

Thanks for your input. You're pushing me in the other direction as far as getting the saw, it really would put me into a niche market vs competing with stick cranes, which is where I am at now.


I'm glad to know you have experience with the 160 and like it. According to the specs the saw is only 16" and the recommended cutting diameter is ~14. How are you doing 18" with it? Just peeling the extra off? Rotating and cutting again?

 

[Kottonwood]

I was wondering about a grapple with rotator for the kboom

It’s a lot lighter

I figure it is a decent backup when the grapple saw is down. I know that would mean I have to work aloff. No big deal for me.

This is what I was thinking. You can still skip the rigging on a lot of pieces. You can also grapple in the center of balance instead of on one end. We have a lot of trees with long horizontal limbs that this setup would work well for. The missing link is the tilt function, that alone makes the grapple saw a much better tool for limbing a tree. It would be cool to see a regular grapple with the tilt function.

 

[Kottonwood]

When we were really busy last year and some of year before I had my friend Rick in with his 63palfinger weekly and wished i could have had him more. They would typically be our biggest money days of the week if all logistics worked out. I to am looking to add an sg160 to end of my crane which a little 25 m/ton with a pretty stout chart for its size it was Ricks first crane. Around here a sub I think requires at least a 40 m/ton to be production enough in length and have any capacity, probably a 65 or bigger an 88 like Steve's will give really give folks the production levels they looking for around these parts.. I'm sure if I added a grapplsaw I'd get calls for it though even if all the way stretched out 80 feet under 45 degrees I'd be good to pick only a 300 pound limb. But you know what ,That's saving someone going up in the tree and I know that's worth it to somebody out there. Like Steve said, Most our landing zones and work areas are so tight here the grappesaw is the best compared to stick crane cause it's not the biggest pick since you can't fit it anyway to put down. Mekkin is a nice flow of work manageable for a small ground crew.. maybe even 1 man with mini loader and descent chipper.

I've never really understood the ton/meter way of rating a crane. I'm not even sure what mine is..... Nomenclature is 28/198.... So maybe it's in there somewhere. If you have more insight on this, please elaborate.

 

[Steve Connally]

Thanks for your input. You're pushing me in the other direction as far as getting the saw, it really would put me into a niche market vs competing with stick cranes, which is where I am at now.


I'm glad to know you have experience with the 160 and like it. According to the specs the saw is only 16" and the recommended cutting diameter is ~14. How are you doing 18" with it? Just peeling the extra off? Rotating and cutting again?

Oh no Never peel. Torque the crap out of your boom. Bypass cuts work.

 

[Steve Connally]

I've never really understood the ton/meter way of rating a crane. I'm not even sure what mine is..... Nomenclature is 28/198.... So maybe it's in there somewhere. If you have more insight on this, please elaborate.

TM is a metric tonne of movement. I wouldn't glee to know how you're truck is rated. May wanna check with the manufacturer.

 

[MA Arborist]

Oh no Never peel. Torque the crap out of your boom. Bypass cuts work.

Steve. Can you explain how you go about doing the bypass cut with your setup?

As a climber I use the bypass cut often when chunking down a spar.
I have an idea in my head with the Mek setup but not completely sure.

 

[Kottonwood]

I was gonna ask the same thing. I would love to see a video.

Steve. Can you explain how you go about doing the bypass cut with your setup?

As a climber I use the bypass cut often when chunking down a spar.
I have an idea in my head with the Mek setup but not completely sure.

 

[Steve Connally]

I orient the saw and cut 2/3 through. Release and spin the saw to the position where it will cut the rest of the wood. You can line it up and take the piece clean or some guys make a "snap cut" like climbing then release and grab the piece at the top and either suck in or scope out to sever the fibers. More leverage grabbing at the top and less stress on the boom. I seldom do that. I'd rather take a smaller piece and just line my cuts up like in the first example.

 

[Kottonwood]

Thanks for all the input Steve and others. I'm leaning towards the saw route.

I called grapple pros today to get some details and try to figure out if I can integrate the controls into my existing remote.

Gotta also figure out how to store it. With a grapple I was considering just storing on the boom. The grapple saw is not so easy.

I'm considering building a box inside my container. I have a 35 yard hook lift container that I bring when I need it..... It'd be kinda awkward to hook up the grapple from there, it would take up space in my container and also would require me to bring the container whenever I need the saw.... Even though I won't always need the container. This remains the easiest option.... But probably not the best.

Another option I'm considering is relocating my batteries and making an under frame mounting system.... This would be a decent option but for sure the most challenging.

The third would be to build a beefy headache rack (the truck needs this anyways) and integrating a box or storage solution to that. The issue I have here is that it puts even more weight on the front axle, which is likely already close to being overloaded.

Im gonna look over my truck again and see if anything else presents itself.

Oh the choices.... Gotta figure something out.