Fear cost me a job with a company today

climbingmonkey24

climbingmonkey24

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
United States
I got scared. Again. Some of you may remember me mentioning this fear issue before.

Some might look at it as inexperience but I don’t doubt my ability. On the contrary I’m very confident in my ability. I hardly ever get nervous when rigging stuff over houses, lines, other obstacles. That doesn’t mean I’m cocky I just trust my ability. I know how to take a tree down / trim, and handle the technical stuff. I actually welcome the technical stuff. My issue is in my thinking and mindset.

I cannot get past the fear when I start working in huge trees. And when I get scared, I freeze up. I get scared being up that high in such a huge tree.

If I can’t deal with this fear, I’m never gonna be able to advance in my career.

Today’s job was a huge pine, two trunks growing out of a huge base and half the base was rotted and hollow, to the point you could break off pieces of wood. That in itself gave me fear before I even started working.

Truth be told, I think I set myself up for failure at the beginning of the day. This was a new job opportunity working for a company and I was in my trial run. Day 1 went awesome. Climbed and trimmed like 5 trees, did some cabling, everything went well. Next day went good. Well today I was feeling nervous before I even went into work because I knew one of the jobs I would eventually have to do I just didn’t know when were these pines. I didn’t even know how rotted they were just that they were like 100 ft tall.

So before I even went into work I was getting myself nerved up in case I would have to face these huge trees. Anxiety, nervousness, etc.

Well it cost me this great job opportunity because the fear just took over. It’s not that I didn’t know how to do it, it’s that I let the fear get in the way.

Running the what if scenarios in my head.

What if the tree fails while I’m tied into it? What if something happens and I become permanently injured, etc.?


I need to learn how to master the fear if I want a career as a climber. Right now my issue is psychological.

It sucks because I consider myself a good climber and tree worker. But when the fear creeps up on me it’s like I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m afraid to make a move, etc.

I was told I’m not what the company is looking for and was sent home. I mean I get it, they need someone who isn’t gonna get afraid like that. I don’t blame them. If I could’ve calmed myself down and just took it slow and did the tree like I should’ve, I wouldn’t be in this situation.
 
How long have you been climbing? There are stages for becoming a competent climber. some get through them faster than others.

Be realistic about your skills and comfort and the companie's expectations.
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles Mr. Monkey. I know I have said it before, but not everyone is wired for big heights and big wood. It might be time for some honest soul searching. You are the only one who knows whether you got it in you, or not. Fuck fear!
 
Would it have been different if the pine was single stemmed and solid. . At 110'. ???? Then it is more understanding hazard trees and mitigating ( more like eliminating ) shockloads on such. If rigging is even possible. Hey so many variables. One progresses bit by bit. You just might not be there yet. Do not beat yourself up. Ride that horse again bud.
 
I have a suggestion.

I have spent my life climbing / rock / oil platforms / trees. I still have days, for whatever reason that ‘fear’ sets in. Learn to embrace it and figure out what it is telling you. Maybe you are ‘off’ that day, with a cold, injury or maybe not enough sleep.

Here is my suggestion as to what to do, once you have embraced the fear...

Now Trolls - behave...

Create a situation, in the tree, where you deliberately take a small swing (not a fall). It will take all you have to do it, but once done, it will reaffirm your ability, equipment and that small injection of adrenaline will give you the clarity and ability to work in the moment. Sounds silly, but it works for me.

PM me if you want to chat.




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In hind sight, do you honestly believe the trees could be climbed safely? (not asking if somebody else did them and made it out alive...more was it a wise choice to do so?)

If it was a bad climb, don't call it fear, call it wisdom. If the company doesn't see it that way, don't see it as a missed opportunity, call it getting out before it gets bad.

If it was truly a tree that you could (should?) have climbed...then put that in your mind. "the last time I walked away, I missed out on a great opportunity". Take the time to look at the tree. Really ask yourself "can this be done safely?"

Try to look at it again. For example: I quoted a tree that is getting near the top of the list which I wrote in my notes to require a power line drop. It is in the next town over, but I wanted to go look at it again before asking the client to pay the power company $150 to do that. I was nearby today so drove by and looked at it with fresh eyes....no problem. Yes, the disconnect would make it easier, but not by much - I can stay plenty far away from that line and get done what we need to. Sometimes just fresh eyes help. Talk it through with others on the crew. "I'm seeing this is pretty rotted. Not sure that will hold me". They may point out an alternative, may highlight how strong the reaction wood is, or may agree with you. I think the advice from @adolan is pretty good to get some training to help understand what you can realistically expect and where to walk away.

Better scared and alive than overconfident and dead. Bottom line to me though: figure out what you can do, enjoy doing, and then do it better than anybody else. There will be a place in the market for you.
 
Healthy respect for trees, heights and your abilities is a good trait. Sometimes you can look at a dangerous tree and see ways to handle the problem, and others that look somewhat innocent can hurt you.

Case example, I had to line clearance prune a White Gum that had another large tree in a storm fall over into the crown of it. Tree looked healthy except it had a nearly invisible/unnoticeable green hue to the shiny white bark. You had to compare it to adjacent white gums a few times to verify the changed hue was actually there...

Because of the large trunk resting in the main fork, I was going to throw a line into a largish healthy looking scaffold branch nearly 9" in diameter and prune outboard of the TIP, 30ft above the ground. Luckily at the last moment was told had to prune other branches as well so climbed up the trunk and worked my way out to pruning point.

Started to do undercut, chain went in less than 1/4" and jammed in the cut - strange. Got my Silky and did one pull cut across top cut location and the 9" diameter, 30ft long branch crashed to the ground. The entire tree crown was rotting from the inside and had left only an outside cambium ring nearly 1/4" thick in all the branches and the only indication was the faintest change in hue of the bark.

Sometimes your instincts are based on barely detectable observations. I would have gotten fired if I had delayed getting up into that tree. Yet I should have stopped to examine what this faintest change in hue was about - luckily it didnt cost me dearly...
 
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Part of it is fear and part of it wasn’t wanting to put my life at risk. I love this job, but I also want to go home at the end of the day.

There was a nearby pine I could’ve tied into. I definitely could’ve done the tree I think I defeated myself before I started because I got psyched out by the size.

On the other hand, the tree looked like a disaster at the base. Rest of the tree looked healthy though. Half of the base was rotted and hollow about 6 ft or so from the ground up. And you could pick the wood apart with your hand.

If I’m working in a medium sized tree I have no problem swinging from branch to branch, limb walking all the way out, etc. It’s as soon as I see the bigger stem, the incredible height, especially on pines that I get freaked out.

I once did a job where I had two oaks growing out of one base. One was pretty large and the other was like a miniature of the really large one. They were side by side obviously, and both were big. I cleared out the smaller one first which was more technical because there were branches going over a shed.

Next one shouldn’t be that big of a deal because there’s no real obstacles right? Wrong. I froze up because of the size. Same tree really, but the size intimidated me. I literally just rigged this whole first tree over the shed and stuff, but was like a kid lost in the mall in this bigger tree. I knew how to do it, I was just scared to move.
 
Sorry to hear you missed out.

I worked with two climbers at previous company that were sensational climbers and teachers, had a wealth of knowledge of trees, cutting, rigging etc. only thing was they wouldn’t climb beyond about 70-80’ was literally like a switch flipped as soon as they got to a certain elevation.
Our employer was really good and only sent those fellas to trees he knew where in their comfort zone height wise, the taller trees he sent other climbers to, no problem.
 
Now that we have established that this is a height/size issue, maybe we could all stop blowing smoke up climbingingmonkey's ass? Sure it might make him feel better, but it aint gonna help him.
Your stress response is putting you in "fight or flight" for some reason Mr. Monkey, and shutting you down. If you want to advance as a climber you need to sort it out. I know I'm repeating myself, but the first thing I would do is to get off caffeine, as it can raise hell with many peoples stress response. Do not under-estimate this! I've seen it with my own eyes.
In the end you are what you are, and your nervous system may or may not allow you to work through this. If you can't, there is zero shame in that. Know/learn your limitations, accept it, and move the fuck on.
 
I'm a new member, and just a rec climber and a beginner at that, but I'll add my 2¢, FWIW. I try always to "listen to my gut" and if my "instinct" says something isn't safe, I'll do my best to try to identify why my gut says that before proceeding.

For example, once when I was a new woodworker, I was trying to cut a real small/thin piece on a table saw, and my brother said, "Just reach over the blade and grab it and pull it through." This felt real hinky to me, but I couldn't put my finger on why. Later, thinking about it, I realized that if you did this and the saw kicked the wood back, it would pull your hand into the blade in the blink of an eye. My brother had been doing that for years without incident, but it only takes once. This isn't a great example, since the danger is obvious to anyone who has run machinery, but there have been other similar situations that took a lot more thinking to finally identify the danger.

My Dad, who was an engineer and didn't go in for touchy-feely stuff, nonetheless always told me to "listen to your gut" because sometimes your subconscious is picking up on things that aren't safe that you don't even realize and couldn't identify if asked, but that you may be able to figure out in hindsight.

I haven't done a lot of climbing, but I do other things that can be hazardous (offshore fishing in cold water, hunting alone in wilderness, etc.), and I've always tried to heed that advice – listen to your gut – and I believe it's saved my butt more than once.

That said, there have also been situations where I thought something wasn't safe, but later learned that it was safe. I think this is where education comes in, and I would agree with adolan that it might be worth getting additional training to try to sort out what's safe from what isn't, to give yourself more confidence that you aren't overlooking something important. This was a big reason why I went and got USCG training for a charter boat license several years back, and now situations that once scared me don't anymore...and vice-versa. (I wish I could get climbing training locally, but live in Nowheresville, so coming here to learn from all of you is hugely valuable to me.)

Anyway, I don't mean to butt in with a long, windy post where it's not wanted, but I feel strongly about this and had to throw in my 2¢ which isn't worth much...

Jeff
 
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One of the down sides to having a large, efficient brain is that our talent for abstract thought makes us better than any other animal at predicting and analyzing potentially hazardous situations. This is a good thing in nearly all regards but one... the physiological responses to stressful situations that induce fear are largely the same for us and any other higher lifeform... but we can easily get caught up in all that analyzing and get our brain sending out the signals that escalate those physiological responses (adrenaline production, etc.) and end up in a sort of feedback loop.

Some extremely thick skulled individuals (sidelong glance at @rico) exposed to hazardous situations quickly learn to isolate those responses and externalize them. Literally, they subconsciously isolate themselves from it and treat it all like a seperate entity that they have control over. I disagree with him about any natural tendency to be unfit for work at height, though. Your brain is quite capable of learning the techniques that come naturally to some people. I've had tree guys up a comm tower that were never afraid of a tree, get their knees knocking together when several tons of steel is swaying in the wind like a rubber dongle. But they're usually able to get a grip on it once they figure out that this is a strong structure because it moves, not in spite of it. We're used to it in a tree, but somehow your brain gets the idea that manmade, skinny objects shouldn't do this, and it starts up the "what if" machine.

You need to spend some time with a climber that understands this and can help you get a grip on it so that you are in control, not the physiological response mechanism. And instead of letting your brain wander all over the field of horrible possibilities, make it work on something helpful... like the fact that the tree is huge. It's also upright. It has a lot of wind sail... resistance to the movement of air. That wind can apply forces to that tree that would leave you stunned, yet there it is, still upright, defects and all. Your piddly little body/gear weight isn't any more to that tree than a very gentle breeze, let alone a wind storm. This doesn't mean you ignore its weaknesses, it means you sort out the parts that you don't want to be on and always, always keep thinking about sticking to the least risky parts. Better safe than sorry attitude helps keep all that bad shit your brain keeps bringing up from actually happening.

Next time you see a really big, sketchy tree... pull over, park and get out and go look at it up close. Stay on the ground and look at it with new eyes. Make your brain figure out why that monster is still standing, and where exactly could you hang a lousy little 250 lbs. or so that would make it fall over. You'll very quickly realize that it's a lot harder to make a tree that size fall over with that much weight than it seems like when you're up in the tree. Now, you have something to use to fight the adrenaline with. Make Nervous Nelly the Quivering Lump of Brain Cells concentrate on keeping you on the best, strongest parts of the tree and not levering anything in a bad direction. It will be too busy to start up the "what if" machine and all this will be second nature in no time.

Try a new approach before you throw the towel in. There are plenty of guys doing this work that were scared to go up a six foot stepladder, at one time. Find a company that understands how to help you get where you want to be, or find a few guys who like doing the work as a side job and do a few jobs together. Might be the makings of a new company in town, because those kind of relaxed work relationships quite often spawn bigger, better things.

I got that long-winded post thing down to a science. I've trained myself to ignore the possibility that I might actually bore someone to death. Fuck 'em. See, anything is possible.
 
For me it comes down to trusting your system - always. Once you're more than about 25 feet off the deck, it doesn't matter how high the tree is really, if you hit the dirt it's going to be bad, or over. So I force my mind to think about - trusting my system. I may even stop and go over it again as an in-flight check, piece by piece. That usually does the trick.
And the tree/ ice I'm climbing on is part of the system. If it's a sketchy tree or I'm starting up crappy, spawly ice that dinner plates all over and propagates cracks, I back off. Always. It's your life. Listen to your teeny voice is good advice. No one else's is going to keep you outa do-do. And in almost all jurisdictions, All Workers Have The Right To Refuse Unsafe Work. Welders don't have to weld if they are worried about a ka-boom and climbers don't have to climb if they see reason for trouble. And it's not just a climber's weight - cutting in the air can create a bending moment at the base of the tree. If I'm rigging, I gotta be really sure. As Reg Coates says in one of his videos - dont do F-it cuts and hope it turns out alright. A good company and a good boss, as has been said above, will listen to their workers and not put them somewhere they aren't comfortable and productive. Wishing you a long life guy.
 
I spent many years diving still do a bit. It is the same thing. Most folk feel comfortable between 40' to 80' underwater. Anything over freaks them out. At 180' on air is like as claustrophobic as it gets. That being said not everyone will venture there. Same applies with trees. Stick with what you are comfortable at . There are many areas that you can fit in.
 
When I first started rope and harness climbing late in the game (40’s) I discovered i’d gained height fear since I was a kid/teen and free climbed all over big trees. 20’ off the ground adrenaline kicked in, knees knocking. I pushed through it and then found out that when I detected the beginning of the adrenaline response, if I backed down about 5’ and waited a couple minutes the adrenaline trigger would stop and I could climb past the point that caused fear minutes ago. Eventually I pushed my ceiling up until I didn’t have one. I recommend seeking out tall forest trees and climb on your free time to recalibrate your fear response. Absolutely doable.

Fear doesn’t go away, or it shouldn’t. A little fear is energizing and sharpens your focus in critical tree situations. You can make the accelerated fear go away by pushing your height ceiling up through repeated climbs off the clock.
-AJ
 
In my first two years of climbing I realized I started driving much faster in certain highway situations. Before climbing my adrenaline response was regulating potential hazardous driving. I had to consciously override my new lack of fear driving at higher speeds. The so-called “nerves of steel” comes from practice whether you’re a climber or a fighter pilot.
-AJ
 
May I asked what company this was and you said again as in it happened before? If the company had any sort of safety culture they would have brought in a more expeirenced climber and turned this into a training expeirence. I have a hard time walking away myself but sometimes it needs to be done. Sometimes its not about the tree but the lack of equipment access or availability.
 
JeffGu said:
One of the down sides to having a large, efficient brain is that our talent for abstract thought makes us better than any other animal at predicting and analyzing potentially hazardous situations. This is a good thing in nearly all regards but one... the physiological responses to stressful situations that induce fear are largely the same for us and any other higher lifeform... but we can easily get caught up in all that analyzing and get our brain sending out the signals that escalate those physiological responses (adrenaline production, etc.) and end up in a sort of feedback loop.

Some extremely thick skulled individuals (sidelong glance at @rico) exposed to hazardous situations quickly learn to isolate those responses and externalize them. Literally, they subconsciously isolate themselves from it and treat it all like a seperate entity that they have control over. I disagree with him about any natural tendency to be unfit for work at height, though. Your brain is quite capable of learning the techniques that come naturally to some people. I've had tree guys up a comm tower that were never afraid of a tree, get their knees knocking together when several tons of steel is swaying in the wind like a rubber dongle. But they're usually able to get a grip on it once they figure out that this is a strong structure because it moves, not in spite of it. We're used to it in a tree, but somehow your brain gets the idea that manmade, skinny objects shouldn't do this, and it starts up the "what if" machine.

You need to spend some time with a climber that understands this and can help you get a grip on it so that you are in control, not the physiological response mechanism. And instead of letting your brain wander all over the field of horrible possibilities, make it work on something helpful... like the fact that the tree is huge. It's also upright. It has a lot of wind sail... resistance to the movement of air. That wind can apply forces to that tree that would leave you stunned, yet there it is, still upright, defects and all. Your piddly little body/gear weight isn't any more to that tree than a very gentle breeze, let alone a wind storm. This doesn't mean you ignore its weaknesses, it means you sort out the parts that you don't want to be on and always, always keep thinking about sticking to the least risky parts. Better safe than sorry attitude helps keep all that bad shit your brain keeps bringing up from actually happening.

Next time you see a really big, sketchy tree... pull over, park and get out and go look at it up close. Stay on the ground and look at it with new eyes. Make your brain figure out why that monster is still standing, and where exactly could you hang a lousy little 250 lbs. or so that would make it fall over. You'll very quickly realize that it's a lot harder to make a tree that size fall over with that much weight than it seems like when you're up in the tree. Now, you have something to use to fight the adrenaline with. Make Nervous Nelly the Quivering Lump of Brain Cells concentrate on keeping you on the best, strongest parts of the tree and not levering anything in a bad direction. It will be too busy to start up the "what if" machine and all this will be second nature in no time.

Try a new approach before you throw the towel in. There are plenty of guys doing this work that were scared to go up a six foot stepladder, at one time. Find a company that understands how to help you get where you want to be, or find a few guys who like doing the work as a side job and do a few jobs together. Might be the makings of a new company in town, because those kind of relaxed work relationships quite often spawn bigger, better things.

I got that long-winded post thing down to a science. I've trained myself to ignore the possibility that I might actually bore someone to death. Fuck 'em. See, anything is possible.
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Amazing post! Sums it all up!
 
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