"Extreme Rigging"

T

TomNJ

Location
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\"Extreme Rigging\"

Extreme Rigging Article

I'd like to hear from anyone familiar w/ the rigging approach described in the attached article.

How well has it worked for you?

Did you make any modifications / improvements?

What would you consider the main weaknesses or risks to this method?

Again, the premise of the article is that you're dealing with diam > 36" and small yards w/ no access for heavy equipment....gotta be done w/ ropes and MA.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I don't see any MA and the shock is still there if you don't let the piece run.
I wouldn't trust dropping a piece that large on a steel lag as there is a good chance for it to break or pull out.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Yeah, you're right. No MA in his method per se. I was just trying to set-up the thread with the basic ground rule that whatever alternatives people might suggest would be limited to ropes / MA...whatever you can carry into a small residential backyard.

So, if you're concerned about tearing out the lag screw, can you suggest something else?

Thx,
T.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

that article is terrible.

That person thinks that they are a thinker, but thinks very wrong.

Many things I don't like: they talk about this being for large diameters, but then I don't think so;

I would never trust the lags or the biners for large diameters. plus they said the groundmen would wheel away the sections, well if they were 4 ft diameter, even if it was only 18 inches long, they couldn't wheel or carry it away.

All the steel hardware has no stretch, the lags would likely rip out with big weights.

And......

forget it, this is too stupid, not wasting any more time on it.

It's hard to believe this person actually does large removals very often.

(maybe I read the article wrong, but I think I understood everything, would like to see a drawing I guess to make sure)
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Interesting thread.

It sounds like the technique is mis-understood here. I have tried it of course. When it hasn't worked is with alloy lag hooks and lengths over 12"; the lags snapped at the anchor, but that was with longer sections because of the drop. It is very quick to set up. No fear of the lags pulling out.

I wrote the article after discussing it with Ken Johnson (maker of the Hobbs LD). He has also had great success with it, but didn't want to be responsible for explaining it in an article (I can see why). It works particularly well with ringing back big boughs over targets where there isn't much drop - the lags can be anchored on top to minimise drop. Its a technique that requires training rather than discussing here or on paper.

I wrote the article to explain other ways of dealing with big wood other than messing with big blocks slings and MA. I have it on video, and there were pictures with the article that haven't been put up on the site.

I'd also recommend nylon lowering ropes as an energy absorber, although there isn't any shock load. Its the same as cutting a ring, sliding it to the edge, tilting and letting slide down the trunk - only there is a rope to slow the descent.

No experience of big rigging... /forum/images/graemlins/shakinghead.gif Don't be so quick to dismiss.

Just re-read Xmans post - the technique is not for discs longer than 12". Removing the increased forces from falling sections is the whole point. Just disc and slide. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I do not like the lag idea, I was taught to remove anything from the tree that might kill or maim you, clotheslines, planter hangars, ect. not add lags on the way up. A lag in the back would cripple you if you took a spill and backed into the tree.

It is the same reason you flush cut your limbs during a removal, so if you fall the stubs dont beat the f out of you, I have seen alot of new era tree climbers forget this, "why make an extra cut when you dont have to? its only a removal", Good thinkin'

It seems sometimes the desire to be creative and develop new rigging lacks common sense.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I disagree Jonsered bred.

The lags are set opposite where you stand. Besides, old school technique doesn't include a choked lifeline, so now there is no chance of 'falling'. Besides, they are hardly proud of the trunk anyhow.

I wrote that article a long time ago, and have discussed it often. Glad to see the technique being discussed. I'm sure there are those who will see merit and give it a try.

Each to their own!
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I am referring to the part of the article that suggests you install lags on the way into the canopy, prior to brushing the tree out.

Ever fall? when climbing during a removal you cant always have your siisy strap hooked, if your tied high and walking a limb and slip you might swing anywhere in the tree, "so opposite of where you stand" concerning the lags is irrelevant.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

It seems time consuming and cumbersome to carry a cordless drill and a bag of lag hooks throughout a removal. Then the ground crew has to remove the hardware from the wood before it is chipped or whatever. Where is the time savings? I'd rather cut a bigger piece and let the ground crew deal with it. Fewer saw cuts in the tree means I'm less apt to get cut. Less damaging vibrations to my hands, etc.

Think I'll stick to a block and sling.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Lazarus,

I'm glad you did write the article none the less.

It's always good to hear new ideas, or old ones that I haven't heard before.

And I think I still haven't understood it fully from reading yet. I'm going to re-read the article again.

You writing:
"although there isn't any shock load."
"Its the same as cutting a ring, sliding it to the edge, tilting and letting slide down the trunk -"
makes me think, I'm not fully understanding your technique. Maybe when I understand it fully, I will agree with it.

Let me see if I understand some of this correctly:

Situation: 4 foot diameter trunk, has to be pieced out and none of it can be dropped.

So you install a lag in the cookie slice you are going to cut. You need a lag because there is no way your rope is going to stay on a thin 12 inch cookie slice of the trunk. You are cutting a thin 12 inch slice because of the weight with the extreme large diameter. I think this much I understand. I like the idea of the lag in this situation.

Now I'm going to go re-read the article to see what you are using instead of a large snatch-block. More lags I think, and caribeaners....

It's very easy to critisize.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

alright, i understand it much better now. I think anyway. Seems okay.

what is this? "insert the rod/dowelling/ball bearings"
Like a pry-bar to get the cut slice moving to slide it off?

Alright, a 12" slice of 4 foot diameter oak is what? 700 pounds maybe? It's going to drop maybe 12 to 20 inches in this setup before the rope takes it, right?

I'm I understanding this?

I think the lags would be fine then.


Maybe the lags should be drilled in at an upward slant, so that when the slice yanks on the lowering lag with the pulley, it has less chance on arching the lag and thereby maybe pulling it out.

also, to add a little more safty, the lag eye below the pulley lag could have a biner on it. the lowering line also through this biner, just in case the pulley lag did pull out.

maybe I'll try to scetch what I think your riging is and you can correct it if I'm wrong.

When I get some time this winter, I'll put some of my ideas and new riging I did this year on this forum for discussion, and you can tear me apart.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

attempting to attach my rough rough drawling of this idea. (first time I've drawn on this program)

Is this right? Is this how you are explaining it?

last lag is drawn at an angle like I was talking about. I realize the lag on the slice won't be angled just right when it falls, but that's okay probably, since it can float around a bit.

Every lag will get yanked on twice I see.

I think you said there would be no shock load at all. So, is my picture right? You just meant little then right? If my picture is what you are talking about, you will definitely have some.

hmmm, okay, I have to find out why there is no option for adding an attachment to this message....
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

okay, looks like attachments and pics can't be added to these posts anymore.

had to add it to my web host first.

here's my rough picture:

http://www.arborx.com/images/extrem...g.jpg[/img] if this doesn't work, i give up.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

You've got it xman. Nice pics, thanks.

The angled lag is an idea, but then that is the wrong angle for the next piece, although it is the anchor lag that takes more force. And there is a higher risk of cutting them. I have tried it with a portawrap instead of a pulley to reduce anchor forces. Whatever happened to dave Spencers topping pulley? that'd work great here?

The discs can always be cut into 6" lengths to lower the weight and fall disatnce.

There is some fall force of course, but very little. With nylon ropes rather than polyester, this should be taken care of.

I like your idea of clipping to the lag below the pulley for safety.

For those that are getting to grips with setting the lags - thats easy. You do it when just a stick is left on the way down - swap the saw for a drill and lag spinner. Then have a cup of tea and a candy bar and SRT back up, haul the lowering rope and pulley, clip it and have the ground crew haul up the big saw to start cutting. Much easier than frigging with big heavy rigging.

This is an un tested technique of course. If TreeFlex sells OK, I'll be having some special lags made and drop tested to see where they rip or snap.

The dowelling rods are to keep the kerf open when cutting. One for either side of the bar makes sweeping a long bar out easier, and then you have nice rollers to slide the disc on to the edge (this is all based on ergonomics and reducing fall forces). Ken explained he used to use a chest pocket full of straws filled with ball bearings and their tops folded over. He'd blow the ball bearings into the kerf, then the cookies could be rotated wherever with ease.

The lags are really useful for loading onto a truck too - no struggling with slings, just clip the hook. I take the lags out at the yard on a rainy day/at convenience. Its not a technique you require every other day unless you make a name for yourself doing that kind of tree and have good climbers to rotate.

Try it somewhere safe with steel forged lags and let me know how you get on.
cool.gif
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a vid of this...seems time consuming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes 2 of us.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

OK - Now I'm going to have some fun:

Time consuming compared to what?

What exactly are your safe and controlled options?
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I may have misinterpreted the information, [ QUOTE ]
4 foot diameter by 6 foot sections of hardwood

[/ QUOTE ]

That would equate to over 3000lbs. which I consider to be extreme rigging as opposed to 700lbs.

Either way I wouldn't use it but new ideas are always worth discussing.
 
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